20 metre pitch in OFD Great Oxbow Series

[NigR]

Amazingly, despite all the publicity created by this thread, another party was issued with a skyhook at Penwyllt a week or so ago. This should not have happened! Reading their account in the logbook, complete with diagram, it would appear that the 'nightmare scenario' postulated by Andy Sparrow (i.e. that the skyhook would semi-lock or jam so creating the illusion it was safe) did occur. Fortunately, it did not fail (the downward pressure exerted on the ladder must have been sufficient to keep it in place) and no injury resulted although the person first up the pitch (a highly experienced caver) did get a nasty shock when he got to the top.

Hopefully, this will not happen again. A warning in red pen has been written on the board next to the key cupboard and I have been told that the skyhook has now been removed from the cupboard (this should have been done after the last incident). However, it is worth spreading the word to anyone who may not be a regular reader of this board.

Anyone wanting to visit the Upper Oxbow Extensions should be prepared to free-climb the skyhook pitch (with protection) or go the long way around over the high level traverses and then abseil back down the pitch - this latter option is a better trip in any case.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Amazingly, despite all the publicity created by this thread, another party was issued with a skyhook at Penwyllt a week or so ago. This should not have happened! Reading their account in the logbook, complete with diagram, it would appear that the 'nightmare scenario' postulated by Andy Sparrow (i.e. that the skyhook would semi-lock or jam so creating the illusion it was safe) did occur. Fortunately, it did not fail (the downward pressure exerted on the ladder must have been sufficient to keep it in place) and no injury resulted although the person first up the pitch (a highly experienced caver) did get a nasty shock when he got to the top.

Hopefully, this will not happen again. A warning in red pen has been written on the board next to the key cupboard and I have been told that the skyhook has now been removed from the cupboard (this should have been done after the last incident). However, it is worth spreading the word to anyone who may not be a regular reader of this board.

Anyone wanting to visit the Upper Oxbow Extensions should be prepared to free-climb the skyhook pitch (with protection) or go the long way around over the high level traverses and then abseil back down the pitch - this latter option is a better trip in any case.

You know all it needs is somebody, anybody, just to go there and remove the fxxcking string!  Then there could be no possibility of this happening again.   

 

[biffa]

As I understand the skyhook has now been removed from the cupboard.  When I advocated removing the skyhook from the cupboard last time as an 'interesting piece of history' I was prevented from doing so.

Even though I am no longer fixed aids officer can I reiterate: If a fixed aid is not on the list then it is not checked by the fixed aids officer and as such can not be trusted.  You are advised to check all fixed aids thoroughly before use and not to use them if they appear unsafe.

Of course anyone reading this is very aware of the problem, I will try to send an SWCC email to make everyone in the club aware.

Cave safely

Ben

 

[Andy Sparrow]

You are advised to check all fixed aids thoroughly before use and not to use them if they appear unsafe.

Good advice but hardly possible when the bolt is 50 feet above you.  Removing the skyhook is a sensible step but the string should be removed too - otherwise cavers will hoist a rope up without realising the single bolt is old, untested and untagged.

I had some fall-out from our incident which I now feel inclined to comment on.  I reported our experience at the time to the SWCC officer who had issued our key and skyhook and then descibed the events quite factually in this thread and Cheddar CC online logbook.  It came as something of a surprise to me, nearly a year later while visiting SWCC, to find myself on the receiving end of a patronising dressing-down by some stroppy little madam from SWCC committee.  This person, despite knowing very little of the facts, decided to give me quite a lecture on my 'failure to inform SWCC through the correct channels' and my 'bitching about the club' on this forum - despite by her own admittance never reading the alledged offending words herself and being entirely ignorant of my reporting back to the key issuing officer on the day. 

I was inclined to let this go until I read Nig R's report today but feel really angry about this now.  All that crap thrown in my direction over this and yet the persons concerned have failed to prevent the episode repeating. 

 

[NigR]

I had some fall-out from our incident which I now feel inclined to comment on.  I reported our experience at the time to the SWCC officer who had issued our key and skyhook and then descibed the events quite factually in this thread and Cheddar CC online logbook.  It came as something of a surprise to me, nearly a year later while visiting SWCC, to find myself on the receiving end of a patronising dressing-down by some stroppy little madam from SWCC committee.  This person, despite knowing very little of the facts, decided to give me quite a lecture on my 'failure to inform SWCC through the correct channels' and my 'bitching about the club' on this forum - despite by her own admittance never reading the alledged offending words herself and being entirely ignorant of my reporting back to the key issuing officer on the day. 

Andy,

Sorry to hear you had problems over this, just wish you had mentioned it earlier. As a SWCC member of 26 years standing, please allow me to apologise. SWCC is a large club, it can attract the wrong type of people and (unfortunately) they can often end up on the Committee. Any idea who this 'stroppy little madam' was? Don't let it upset you and don't let it put you off visiting Penwyllt and caving in OFD in the future.

Interestingly, I received no negative feedback at all after your unfortunate incident despite the fact that (if anything) I was the one complaining about the club on this forum (as I am now). Wonder if anyone will have the guts to say anything to me this time?

 

[biffa]

Andy:  I think we both see this from different sides of the fence.  I will not indulge in an undignified slanging match.

Nig:  Turn up to the next AGM and stand for the committee then!

 

[NigR]

Nig:  Turn up to the next AGM and stand for the committee then!

Ben,

Although I did actually attend the AGM on one occasion (won't make that mistake again!), I decided a long time ago that committees were not for me. Thanks for the offer anyway.

Andy:  I think we both see this from different sides of the fence.  I will not indulge in an undignified slanging match.

Andy,

Looks like your argument has won the day. Well done!

 

[Tony_B]

Hmmm, looks like time to move this on...

When Biffa posted his original replies to this thread, on the subject of the skyhook pitch up to Great Oxbow Series, he did so as SWCC Fixed Aids Officer. I am the current holder of that position and raised the matter in the SWCC committee meeting this weekend, as the recent skyhook incident and this thread had been brought to my attention (and some posts included criticism directed at SWCC).

However, I hasten to reiterate at this point that the skyhook bolts at the top of that pitch are not, and have never been, SWCC-maintained fixed aids, and that an obvious notice in the lobby at Penwyllt states: "all other aids are unauthorised and you are strongly advised not to use them". The issuing of a skyhook to a party going there was a mistake, but SWCC's duty officer system relies on the goodwill of volunteering members and D.O.s cannot be expected to be familiar with every inch of Ogof Ffynnon Ddu or with the condition of every unofficial bolt and piece of rope. It is also the case that that pitch has not been suitable for use with the skyhook for at least 15 years and it is unfortunate that anyone thought that it was. Yes, the string could have been removed but it can be used to rig an SRT rope from below if anyone is prepared to ignore the advice mentioned above about unofficial fixed aids.

Anyway, as has already been mentioned, the skyhook has now been removed from the cupboard at SWCC and the committee has decided that this removal will be permanent; the skyhook served its purpose in its day but has no place in modern caving. The only other place in OFD that requires the use of a skyhook is the climb up into Fault Aven Series from the II streamway, skyhook bolts having been used to replace a handline, some years ago, with the intention of deterring casual visits to see the PomPom formation. These bolts ARE official SWCC fixed aids, and this pitch will be re-rigged in the near future to enable an SRT rope to be rigged from below. In the meantime you can either free-climb this climb or go somewhere else. 

I will be happy to answer any further queries on this but can I once again make it clear...the only fixed aids inspected and maintained by SWCC are those listed on the notice in the lobby at Penwyllt. Anything else is unofficial, may have been installed many years ago and not looked at since, and cannot be regarded as safe. Even the maintained fixed aids should be carefully inspected before use and wherever possible additional safety measures such as cows' tails or lifelines should be used.

Cave safely...
Tony. 

 

[Andy Sparrow]

However, I hasten to reiterate at this point that the skyhook bolts at the top of that pitch are not, and have never been, SWCC-maintained fixed aids, and that an obvious notice in the lobby at Penwyllt states: "all other aids are unauthorised and you are strongly advised not to use them".

The OFD survey has the annotation 'skyhook' in only two places - PomPom Passage (where it is still operational) and at the pitch in question leading to the Great Oxbow Series.  This is presumably why cavers occasionally request the use of the skyhook for this pitch.  I get a bit miffed with this constant quoting of the fixed aids policy in response to these events as if the near-accidents are due to the failure of the cavers concerned to follow correct procedures when responsibility actually rests entirely with SWCC.

Yes, the string could have been removed but it can be used to rig an SRT rope from below if anyone is prepared to ignore the advice mentioned above about unofficial fixed aids.

Or if they think, quite reasonably, that 'skyhook' on the survey indicates certified anchors at the top.    My advice to SWCC as a professional expert witness who has advised on numerous litigation cases is that the string should be removed as a matter of urgency.  With two near-misses in the public domain you would find any litigation arising from a third event very difficult to defend.  Much easier by far just to pull down a piece of string.

 

[Tony_B]

I get a bit miffed with this constant quoting of the fixed aids policy in response to these events as if the near-accidents are due to the failure of the cavers concerned to follow correct procedures when responsibility actually rests entirely with SWCC.

The fixed aids notice in the lobby is clear and unequivocal; it was designed to be that way on legal advice that SWCC took at the time of a review of the entire fixed aids situation. What part of "these are the only maintained fixed aids, all others are unofficial and you are strongly advised not to use them" don't you understand?

Or if they think, quite reasonably, that 'skyhook' on the survey indicates certified anchors at the top.

Since when did wording on a survey indicate the presence of certified anything, anywhere? 

 

[Andy Sparrow]

The fixed aids notice in the lobby is clear and unequivocal; it was designed to be that way on legal advice that SWCC took at the time of a review of the entire fixed aids situation. What part of "these are the only maintained fixed aids, all others are unofficial and you are strongly advised not to use them" don't you understand?

I understand it well enough.  What I don't understand is why you and other SWCC officers feel compelled to keep quoting it at me.  When I asked the SWCC duty officer for the skyhook I explained where in the cave we planned to use it.  He then conferred with a colleague about whether or not the pitch was still suitably bolted and certified.  Together they consulted the fixed aids list and concluded that it was listed.  They were wrong, of course, because they confused the pitch with Pompom passage - but I can hardly be blamed for their mistake. 

I maintain very robustly that at no point before, during, or after my near-miss trip did I do anything wrong in any way.  And yet, I find myself, a year after the event, being criticised and patronised by people who don't even know the facts. 

 

[graham]

Andy and I have had our disagreements on the subject of liability before (and doubtless will again) but in this instance he is quite correct. If SWCC wishes to install and maintain fixed aids in OFD (for many of which many of us are grateful) then they need to be wholly professional about this.

It is clear that handing out the skyhook was negligent and that had there been a resultant injury then SWCC (either as a whole, its committee or specified members - I do not intend to debate the legal technicalities here) would have been liable.

That, however, is not the only issue. They say:

... SWCC's duty officer system relies on the goodwill of volunteering members and D.O.s cannot be expected to be familiar with every inch of Ogof Ffynnon Ddu ...

I quite agree, however, I then need to point out that if these people are not that familiar with the cave then they cannot expect visitors to be familiar with it, either. If you are a visitor to the cave and you come across a fixed aid underground then how do you know that it is - or is not - an SWCC approved and maintained aid? The fact that they list these things in cottage is neither here nor there, as it is unreasonable to expect that a visitor will memorize that list and it is unreasonable to assume that a visitor will be able to correctly identify their locations underground.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Is one answer to clearly label in an unambiguous way the fixed aids themselves, so that if a label is seen, there is no doubt that the aid is 'approved', and if no label is seen, then the aid must be considered unofficial. The place to put a notice is at the place of use, not in the cottage surely?

 

[Tony_B]

Is one answer to clearly label in an unambiguous way the fixed aids themselves, so that if a label is seen, there is no doubt that the aid is 'approved', and if no label is seen, then the aid must be considered unofficial. The place to put a notice is at the place of use, not in the cottage surely?

All of the fixed aids in Ogof Ffynnon Ddu are marked with a tag, something else that is made clear on the notice in the cottage. Anything that does not have a tag is not an official fixed aid, and there is not, and never was, a tag on the string on the pitch in question.

They were wrong, of course, because they confused the pitch with Pompom passage - but I can hardly be blamed for their mistake.  

That it is easy to confuse places and pitches in a cave as big as OFD becomes apparent when one looks at the first few posts on this thread. I have already admitted that the issuing of a skyhook was a mistake on the part of one or more individuals who are members of a large club and were doing their best to help visiting cavers. I have explained that SWCC has taken steps to ensure that there will be no repeat.

Constructive discussion of a serious matter is not helped by the influence of personal prejudices, and it is easy to detect such prejudices against SWCC in some of the posts on this thread; perhaps now it can return to dealing with the matter in question. 

 

 

[Peter Burgess]

perhaps now it can return to dealing with the matter in question. 

   

 

[biffa]

If you are a visitor to the cave and you come across a fixed aid underground then how do you know that it is - or is not - an SWCC approved and maintained aid? The fact that they list these things in cottage is neither here nor there, as it is unreasonable to expect that a visitor will memorize that list and it is unreasonable to assume that a visitor will be able to correctly identify their locations underground.

From the SWCC website (http://www.swcc.org.uk/caving/access/ofd.php): Rule number three for access to the cave:

The leader is responsible for the conduct, safety AND the provision of the necessary equipment to complete the trip. They must also draw the attention of their party to the conditions relating to the use of any fixed equipment within the Cave. This information is displayed on the board in the SWCC HQ. (A copy of these will be given to mid-week users).

It appears this is assumed and more so stipulated.

 

[SamT]

Getting a bit bored with the tooing and froing on this one.

Ive never caved in South Wales - let alone OFD and Im not going to pretend to know anything about the way SWCC operate or run/maintain their fixed aids.

However - as an outsider looking in -

Can anyone put forward a strong case for KEEPING the string in place.

 

[graham]

That rule will not assist anyone in correctly identifying an "official" fixed aid within the cave.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Constructive discussion of a serious matter is not helped by the influence of personal prejudices, and it is easy to detect such prejudices against SWCC in some of the posts on this thread
 

Of the 25 replies to the original posting I can see only one that might display 'personal prejudice'.  I certainly had no issues whatsoever with SWCC before this matter arose and any sentiments I now have are based on actual experience rather than prejudice.  The advice given by myself and Graham is far from prejudiced - on the contrary, it is highly informed and you would be well advised to consider it seriously. 

 

[graham]

Quite right, Andy. I have no prejudice against SWCC, indeed some of my closest friends are SWCC members. I only entered into this thread because I became worried that they were missing a very important point.

One of the joys of the BCA "P" hanger scheme is that it is quite unambiguous in the UK. If you see a "P" hanger you know it is part of that scheme. The trouble with many of the fixed aids in OFD is that they will be unfamiliar to many cavers, in type let alone location. Given that it is inevitable that other aids will have been placed in such an extensive and interesting system over the years it becomes doubly important that the maintained ones can be easily identified. Recent experience during the great "P" hanger crisis of 2007 means I know that tags will not always be reliably positioned. This is why, when I highlighted the problem, above, I did not simply recommend this route, as Peter did after.