20 metre pitch in OFD Great Oxbow Series

[Peter Burgess]

This is why, when I highlighted the problem, above, I did not simply recommend this route, as Peter did after.

Fair point but only if two aids are in very close proximity to each other. If the aid is on its own, then labelling is a failsafe procedure. If the label disappears, the aid automatically becomes 'unofficial'.

 

[rich]

SWCC have clearly cocked up here, and seriously. Twice. The individuals involved will have been acting in good faith, but SWCC's procedures haven't worked and could have killed someone.

It's fair enough to point out that people are using the fixed aids at their own risk, but to attack people who are giving you sensible criticism, or dismissing it as prejudice, is unreasonable.

 

[Tony_B]

Can anyone put forward a strong case for KEEPING the string in place.

I went to the Great Oxbow Series with another SWCC member in December 2006, and we used the string to rig an SRT rope. And yes, I know that I have already made it clear that the bolt at the top is not a maintained fixed aid but the bloke I was with had been there more recently than I had, and I trusted that he knew what he was doing. My choice. In Ogof Ffynnon Ddu as in many other caves there are unofficial fixed aids that sometimes it is convenient or expedient to use as long one understands and appreciates the risks involved. SWCC could go round and remove everything unauthorised but we would probably incur the wrath of cavers who find some of these things useful or the diggers/explorers who have left particular projects rigged to suit their needs.

And before you shoot me down in flames I'm not saying that this makes 'a strong case' for retaining the string, I am merely pointing out that it does serve a purpose. As I have already made clear the skyhook will no longer be issued by D.O.s or anyone else at SWCC.

 

[graham]

Removing "everything unauthorised" wouldn't work either. A policy that claims to do this would give the, perfectly reasonable, presumption that whatever was found was authorised. Given that, by definition, anyone placing "unauthorised" aids won't bother telling you, you'd never keep up.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I hope this discussion is not leading to the same conclusion that was reached earlier this year in Somerset. "Dodgy hangers? Better not let anyone into the caves, then".  :tease:

 

[damian]

Can anyone put forward a strong case for KEEPING the string in place.

I went to the Great Oxbow Series with another SWCC member in December 2006, and we used the string to rig an SRT rope. And yes, I know that I have already made it clear that the bolt at the top is not a maintained fixed aid but the bloke I was with had been there more recently than I had, and I trusted that he knew what he was doing. My choice. In Ogof Ffynnon Ddu as in many other caves there are unofficial fixed aids that sometimes it is convenient or expedient to use as long one understands and appreciates the risks involved. SWCC could go round and remove everything unauthorised but we would probably incur the wrath of cavers who find some of these things useful or the diggers/explorers who have left particular projects rigged to suit their needs.

And before you shoot me down in flames I'm not saying that this makes 'a strong case' for retaining the string, I am merely pointing out that it does serve a purpose. As I have already made clear the skyhook will no longer be issued by D.O.s or anyone else at SWCC.

Might it be sensible, given the obvious potential danger of misunderstanding the string, to place a small laminated notice at its base warning people what it shouldn't be used for. There are many other cases of laminated notices in caves and I doubt many would consider it a conservation issue. It could well save a life, though.
Something tells me though, and I'm sure Graham will confirm or deny this, that this may lead to more legal issues ... I hate the law sometimes!

 

[graham]

Not me mate, I'm confirming or denying nothing.

I did go up the skyhook about twenty years ago, though.  8)

 

[NigR]

Can anyone put forward a strong case for KEEPING the string in place.

In my opinion there is no need whatsoever to keep the string in place now that the skyhook has been retired. Yes, you could use it to haul up an SRT rope (as Tony mentions) but is this totally safe and foolproof? Don't know myself 'cos I've never tried it.

What I do know is that the pitch in question can be free-climbed (preferably with protection) 'cos I've done it - and I am not a very good climber. The remaining rawlbolt can be used to abseil back down but even that is not essential as there are bombproof natural belays (massive stal threads) at the top of the pitch. Hence there was never really any need for all these fixed aids in the first place!

 

[SamT]

so if no body can come up with a stong case - then just remove it.

The pitch can be free climbed - so its not like your permenently removing access to anyone.

Then why not go ahead and rig a proper pull through - stainless steel chain y hang - big ring. Bobs your uncle - fannys your aunt, problem solved.

Then it could become one of the official maintained fixed aids again.

Doesn't seem so outragous to me.

 

[biffa]

so if no body can come up with a stong case - then just remove it.

The pitch can be free climbed - so its not like your permenently removing access to anyone.

Then why not go ahead and rig a proper pull through - stainless steel chain y hang - big ring. Bobs your uncle - fannys your aunt, problem solved.

Then it could become one of the official maintained fixed aids again.

Doesn't seem so outragous to me.

Only problem with this is that I can see is encouraging a large amount of traffic through a very delicate part of the cave  that at the moment is still relatively unspoilt.  Imagine that it became a 'bolt on' to the standard Marble Showers through trip - the passage would quickly be trashed.

Besides I think that OFD has enough bits of metal in it anyhow.

 

[graham]

Only problem with this is that I can see is encouraging a large amount of traffic through a very delicate part of the cave  that at the moment is still relatively unspoilt.  Imagine that it became a 'bolt on' to the standard Marble Showers through trip - the passage would quickly be trashed.

That was my thought.

Besides I think that OFD has enough bits of metal in it anyhow.

I think that's a whole new debate.

 

[SamT]

Well - if reducing traffic to that section is your primary concern (over the safety of cavers using that particular half assed non maintained knackered old fixed aid) then just take out the string which forces any caver to free climb the pitch at their own risk.

Job done. sorted. sweet. everyones a winner. goodnight.

 

[biffa]

I think that's a whole new debate.

I didn't mean to start it!

 

[graham]

Well - if reducing traffic to that section is your primary concern (over the safety of cavers using that particular half assed non maintained knackered old fixed aid) then just take out the string which forces any caver to free climb the pitch at their own risk.

Job done. sorted. sweet. everyones a winner. goodnight.

You are determined to shut this thread down, aren't you sam. 

You've missed just one point. As has been noted, there are perfectly good naturals to ab off there, so don't just take the string out, take the bolts out too.