Access in private or democratic groups.

[Peter Burgess]

There's a heap load more things the BCA could be doing without going anywhere near the matter of cave access, should it wish to. In fact, with the likes of CAL, and other bodies specifically set up to work on matters of access, its a good reason for the BCA to simply leave things alone.

 

[cap n chris]

Indeed. One of the principle functions of the BCA should be to ensure caves are conserved as well as can be reasonably and practicably achieved; cavers are not particularly good at it, per se, on the whole, so it morally behoves the national administration to actively (and I mean actively) engage in conservation in all its various guises.

It's one thing pandering to the interests of cavers, ('cos it's populist), but...

Who is looking after the interest of caves?

And square the circle of how you can protect something if the general public has a legal right to access it.

 

[mikem]

One of the principal things that the BMC are involved in is access & climbers don't need to be a member to go climbing - probably one of the most respected & liked governing bodies in the country...

Mike

 

[cap n chris]

They do in Cheddar Gorge.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Who is looking after the interest of caves?

Natural England? NRW?

 

[cap n chris]

No budget, no resources, no action, no actual power. Actually that's a bit harsh. Substitute little for no. NE, certainly, not so knowledgeable about NRW's finances and legislative clout.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Looks like cavers will have to do it then.

 

[cap n chris]

They're too busy caving, having a lark; they don't want to look after caves, they want to go caving.

 

[royfellows]

Sorry but I think that this thread is going off at a tangent.

Free and easy access to mines on the CAL schedule, yes, because there are no conservation issues related to visitors, its all related to natural decay and conservation means interventionism in the form of remedial work.
Parc exploration would not get you very far without the efforts of my helper and I, 5 digs in there that will last indefinitely, 3 ladder refurbs - down to me.

Henfwlch - far reaches via my dig, actually the first use by me of steel and concrete

Talybont - a team of WMS bods including me, concrete refurb, me alone and took 12 months. No Roy = No access to deep adit. No democracy, well I am really sorry about that. Maybe I should have took opinion about the brand of cement.


Sorry about the rant, its late, just got in from training, food in the microwave.

 

[cap n chris]

Sorry but I think that this thread is going off at a tangent.

Correct. Apologies!

 

[cap n chris]

No democracy, well I am really sorry about that.

Don't be. Access Control Bodies don't need to be democratic to function exceptionally well. In fact many do so because of this, not in spite of it. 

 

[Ian Adams]

No democracy, well I am really sorry about that.

Don't be. Access Control Bodies don't need to be democratic to function exceptionally well. In fact many do so because of this, not in spite of it.

.... Including CAL, thank you for pointing this out 

Ian

 

[Oceanrower]

They do in Cheddar Gorge.

No they don't.

Or, to be more accurate, they do in the half owned by the same people that own the caves......

 

[cap n chris]

The vertical half.

 

[royfellows]

I came in late last night, checked the thread, and saw a lot of bickering starting.

If you stand back and take an objective view we have a situation whereby there is now access where previously there was no access, and lot of you are bickering over it!
A person would say that it isn't difficult to see why no progress was being made before CAL.

Now grasping the bull by the horns, I ask a simple question.
As has already been stated CAL policy is that access to the mines on its schedule should be as free and easy as possible, and bearing in mind that there are no conservation issues, does anyone feel this this should be done differently?

 

[AR]

If you stand back and take an objective view we have a situation whereby there is now access where previously there was no access, and lot of you are bickering over it!
A person would say that it isn't difficult to see why no progress was being made before CAL.

Now grasping the bull by the horns, I ask a simple question.
As has already been stated CAL policy is that access to the mines on its schedule should be as free and easy as possible, and bearing in mind that there are no conservation issues, does anyone feel this this should be done differently?

In so many situations, it needs a few determined people with common purpose to really get things done, otherwise we see the situation where everybody mills around thinking somebody should do something with the end result that nobody does anything.

As I said a while back on Aditnow, if Roy is empire-building then I'm a flag-waving imperialist; how many sites can we now easily and legitimately get access to thanks to his hard work and that of his compatriots, all of which I might add is for the love of the mines and not for personal gain?

This whole thread has come across to me as an exercise in straw man building; I hear a lot of people banging on about democracy but how many of them can be bothered to turn out to regional or national caving body meetings? That's your democratic forum, but I suppose it takes _effort_ to attend meetings or worse still, stand for one of the posts. So much easier to gob off on the internet....

 

[Simon Wilson]

I think you'll find a majority of cavers are supportive of open access to MOST caves

I suspect if they were provided with a fuller picture of the potentially calamitous results of the "Jam Today" Populist Policy they might temper their enthusiastic support to a great extent. Open access has a price to pay. Presently the majority of cavers in the UK can gain access to the majority of caves in the country, nearly all without any cost penalty which is as near as dammit the equivalent of free and easy access, without any need for legislative wrangling, institutionalised antagonism of landowners, a schism in national and regional administrations, and an unstoppable flight from national bodies by the general public/cavers/people with a builder's hat, who "no longer need the BCA 'cos they can go caving wherever they like whenever they want" etc.. If the BCA wanted to commit slow suicide it's arguably doing an effective job at it by pursuing CRoW.

Your view of the access situation is narrow and South-centric. Lack of access to great parts of the karst in the North has meant that cavers have become increasingly concentrated on those limited areas where they can get access.

You are continuing with the dirty tricks when you throw in the red herring of antagonism of landowners. There is no evidence for any "antagonism of landowners"; it is an idea invented by you and the rest of your small anti-CRoW group. The CroW campaign has been an opportunity for cavers to talk with landowners and other interested people and further improve the good relations that we have.

The CRoW campaign has the potential to enhance the reputation of the BCA in the same way that access campaigns have done for the BMC.

 

[cap n chris]

Apologies to Roy and others but Simon Wilson's skewing comments need rebuttal.

A nice example of the divided house; on the one hand people seem genuinely convinced that BCA is enhancing its reputation and good relations by using force of law to trample on landowners' wishes to control access to caves on their land, and on the other hand people consider this a form of antagonism of landowners, and making mention of it is viewed as a red herring. There are landowners who are most definitely not impressed, to put it mildly, with the turn of events. Perhaps both views are correct, in which case it supports the posit that there is a schism and a house divided and that is another story, yet to play out.

PS Where have I stated being anti-CRoW? Why do you tar me as part of an "anti-CRoW group", as though such a thing even exists? It is possible to see both sides of something and comment thereon while still retaining neutrality, is it not?

PPS Anyone who sets out to organise access, and succeeds, should be supported (even if access has conditions attached). Roy has done wonderful work and should be example to others.

 

[caving_fox]

how many sites can we now easily and legitimately get access to thanks to his hard work and that of his compatriots, all of which I might add is for the love of the mines and not for personal gain?

Is there a list of which ones are now readily accessible?

 

[royfellows]

Here you are:
http://rakelane.anduin.org.uk/cal/sites.html


To lighten things up, lets all have a good laugh.
Tried to follow a link to CAL and got an error page, and this is one of the 'ads' that was on it:

Buy Caves at Amazon
Low Prices on Caves. Free UK Delivery on Eligible Orders
Sponsored by: amazon.co.uk/Caves

Now there is something to think about. Empire building, conspiracy?
I aught to follow the link and see if I can pick up a few more.