Access in private or democratic groups.

[royfellows]

No one has explained why CAL is the only way to keep or achieve access, just a load of tosh about liability (craftily avoided by being a shell company).

Jopo

The agreement contains an indemnity clause.

Ahh, Oh
:-\

 

[royfellows]

Here is a bit more where I attempt to address the points raised, but I omit deliberately where he answers his own questions.

CAL policy can be whatever the directors say - we the great unwashed have no say in the policy.

.......................  when you mention other conservation bodies. I ask you and others to remember that there was almost no problem for the majority of cavers who gained access through them for years and that every one of those bodies can be influenced by active cavers. CAL cannot.

Isn't this exactly what we are doing, my logic here being based on the many posts supporting our policy against yours and one other that does not.
I still think that this is democratic, if it isn't then what is?

What mines are now accessible that were not before CAL. I suspect one or two were but talking to some mine enthusiasts find that many on the list never had a problem.

Under By Laws NRW can prosecute anyone entering mines on their land without permission, so all access prior to CAL was covert.
In 1986? a group leader was prosecuted for taking a party into Rhiwbach. This mine is now gated and fitted with combination locks which were originally accessed by outdoor groups, these are now controlled by CAL who under CAL policy of making access as free and easy as possible give out the combination on request.

Trips scheduled into Parc on the north Wales NAMHO field meet had to be cancelled due to non permission.

The CAL agreement for everywhere with the exception of Temple Mine (formally owned by CCW) is not with NRW but with the Welsh government, this logically leads to the conclusion that ownership is in the Welsh government.

 

[Kenilworth]

Because "Property is Theft"?

Vague use of a half-baked philosophical jingle does very little to answer the question.

Under By Laws NRW can prosecute anyone entering mines on their land without permission, so all access prior to CAL was covert.
In 1986? a group leader was prosecuted for taking a party into Rhiwbach. This mine is now gated and fitted with combination locks which were originally accessed by outdoor groups, these are now controlled by CAL who under CAL policy of making access as free and easy as possible give out the combination on request.

Roy's comments here are interesting. And they have a connection to the "land ownership" question.
In saying that "all access... was covert," he seems to say that explorers were too lazy to negotiate with owners themselves, but in citing a single case of prosecution he seems to say that covert access was nearly the same thing as open access. I have never had much respect for ideas of land ownership as practiced in most "developed" countries, but none of us can count on the general population or especially landowners, to feel the same way. And we should respect one another as humans.

So the question is raised, how can I respect my neighbor as a man, while caring not one whit about his rights as a property owner? Often the answer is covert access. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

To an outside observer, the fact that CAL were able to negotiate in behalf of you lot should be celebrated, at least by you lot. You have more privileges and fewer (or at least less critical) responsibilities. If it all goes wrong down the road, who cares? You're getting something for nothing now, and that's what you want. Right?

 

[royfellows]

There was a whole 'history' of access issues in the Gwydir Forest with tit for tat escalation going back to the early 1980s

The chap who was prosecuted came to the attention of what was then the Forestry Commission after a lady had to be rescued because she slipped on the incline and injured her back.

Access negotiation was attempted by NAMHO I believe, but the position of the Forestry had become entrenched.

In recent years attitudes have changed and what was then Forestry Commission Wales becoming absorbed into the new body Natural Resources Wales with a new policy of opening up what was Forestry land for recreational activities. An attitude which has to be applauded.

Times change, and sometimes it is for the better.