Access to caves and mines in the Forest of Dean

[Brains]

No point suing me - it would cost more for the lawyers than I ever will have! I would however expect anyone I take underground to be appropriately equipped on a personel level, be it wetsuit or cotton boiler suit, and would be happy to refuse to take anybody that didnt appear ready for the planned trip (Didnt someone die in Mere Gill in just a boiler suit many years ago?), including appropriate lighting. Tackle is another issue, and many sources provide lists of an acceptable amount of stuff for a particular trip, and I also have stood by the sump in Pen Y Ghent wondering why I still had sveral bits of rope and a bag of bolts left over. I suggest that is a better scenario than being tempted to free climb a pitch because of a lack of tackle. A good description and perhaps a reccomended tackle list might well be useful.
Gates will undoubtedly preserve the underground environment, but raises the issue of who controls them, and who is allowed through. The North generally seems open access to all, while the Mendips and SWales does give the impression that every rabbit hole has a gate and a commitee (yes I know permits are also needed int'north). In the Peak the gated locations are usually accessible with just a big spanner. Which system works best? Define best, discuss...

(Eh Shipbadger, how is this going for a can of worms?)

 

[cap n chris]

Please excuse me while I take a side pew to watch this become a handbags at dawn event....

 

[Ship-badger]

Brains.
This is an excellent can of worms. What did we get hot under the collar about before insurance became an issue. I know access has caused problems in some places for many years.
Gates are a thorny subject. I know instances where they definitely protect the cave (Otter Hole); where they protect the unwary visitor (Otter Hole); where they protect bats. The majority of caves in the north benefit from being far way from major centres of population, whereas those in South Wales and Mendips are close to some large towns with their quotas of feckless youths who would prove their manhood by vandalising places of beauty. Go to Mallorca to see what happens to ungated, easy access, well-decorated caves near large towns.
I totally agree that if you have nothing then you have no need of insurance as you are not worth sueing. I do not have nothing however, and some miserable bugger might just have a go, especially as it would probably cost them nothing to sue me, but it would cost me a fortune to fight them. So I will begrudgingly continue to pay my premiums until the government see sense, and legislate to take away the threat of this type of stupid litigation.

 

[graham]

Ship Badger makes a good point about how caves in different areas have different problems when it comes to access controls. Would Jagman suggest that we did not gate caves that are located next to housing estates?

As far as Brains comments are concerned: more than you'll ever have? One day you might want to own a house, but you won't after my lawyers (paid for by my insurance ) have tied up your future assets.

But then, as I said, hey that's your problem, not mine.

 

[Brains]

Just how many cavers have had to claim on the insurance?
How many cavers future assets do you have?
How many landowners or their agents have sued cavers?
How litigatious is the pastime / sport of caving?
What, exactly, would or would not be covered? When we asked this we were told "Less is more - dont ask and see what you get at the test case"

During my clubs ongoing wrangles with insurance, it has been stated to us that the premiums are so high because the brokers etc have NO STATISTICAL EVIDENCE on which to base a fair premium, so we as a collective body of cavers can help pay for the insurance industries massive losses in recent years due to thier mismanagement of risk assessment. As a caver I am insured, as an individual I am undoubtedly worth more to my family dead!!

Finally, just remember, what is the difference between a lawyer and a cat fish....?



One is a bottom feeding scum sucker, and the other is a fish.
Once they get involved, only they win - thats the real meaning of a claims culture :evil:

 

[graham]

I know of two claims on caving insurance (and,no I am not going into detail about these). One of the reasons that there have been so few is that the same cavers who have made sure that insurance is available to us have spent time over the years cultivating links with landowners, official bodies, etc etc to safeguard our position.

I have said, earlier in this thread that the access schemes with which I am involved do not require visiting cavers to be insured. However, the access providing bodies do require such cover (because we don't trust the rest of you buggers - let alone the rest of the world).

For that reason alone, caving, as such, requires a caver-friendly PI insurance scheme.

 

[Jagman]

Where I live there are literally hundreds of mines
Some are gated but non are locked, many are in villages surrounded by houses with children and animals wandering around.
We have no injuries or deaths from people/animals straying in accidently.
We do occasionally get a casualty underground for all the usual reasons (light failure,rope to short,mistakes)
Over in the Lake District some mines are gated and locked and in some cases sensibly , there are some that require Insurance to gain access.

As far as I can see nobody gets injured or dies for lack of insurance, the same cannot be said for lack of training or kit.

Anyway, this is'nt what this thread asked, if I remember rightly it was about what people fealt was appropriate for th FoD.

Personnaly I think we all ought to be aiming for the same things-

Better access
Appropriate kit use
Improved safety awareness

Nobody needs to be forced to do anything, but information and access need to be more freely available.....

 

[cap n chris]

No doubting whether there have been valid claims on insurance re: caving, there have certainly been numerous out of court settlements via insurance companies in relation to caving incidents. Does this count?

 

[Jagman]

No doubting whether there have been valid claims on insurance re: caving, there have certainly been numerous out of court settlements via insurance companies in relation to caving incidents. Does this count?

I guess if the cavers insurance company makes the out of court payment then effectively it is a claim :?

 

[cap n chris]

Would anyone accept that appropriate kit for an underground trip* should include a helmet or is a Petzl Tikka and a kagoule sufficient?

There is a reason for asking this, BTW.


* In, for example, Swildon's Hole.

 

[jasonbirder]

I think the appropriate Kit thing is a bit redundant...how often do you meet someone underground thats not fully kitted up?

 

[cap n chris]

VERY OFTEN! - i.e. pretty much every week.

Saw 4 people on Saturday going into Goatchurch with 2 torches between them and normal clothing, for example.

Have met two people in Swildon's wearing Petzl Tikkas and normal clothes recently (hence the earlier post)... group of five people, including three children 8-12, wearing jeans and T-shirts with site helmets were "assisted" from below the ladder pitch in Swildon's during the flooding of November 4th etc. etc..

 

[graham]

Would anyone accept that appropriate kit for an underground trip* should include a helmet or is a Petzl Tikka and a kagoule sufficient?

There is a reason for asking this, BTW.


* In, for example, Swildon's Hole.

I can think of very experienced cavers who have ventured down Swildon's Hole in all sorts of odd gear. I remember a well-experienced cave diver in an old tweed jacket & with a candle for lighting.

This was on the 21st anniversary of the '68 flood.

Should someone have stopped him?

 

[JB]

Saw 4 people on Saturday going into Goatchurch with 2 torches between them and normal clothing, for example.

In general, I don't think this is a bad thing although I've never been in Goatchurch. I think we shouldn't be high-and-mighty and presciptive about caves just because it's our hobby. Would the UK have produced so many explorers over centuries if people didn't do this sort of thing? I guess they're not carrying as much redundant lighting as we might carry but they're probably not crawling around/getting wet etc. Most torches don't just stop working...only speleotechnics ones when the headset parts company with the battery.

group of five people, including three children 8-12, wearing jeans and T-shirts with site helmets were "assisted" from below the ladder pitch in Swildon's during the flooding of November 4th etc. etc..

If these people got themselves down the ladder pitch but couldn't get back up then this is obviously a problem. Also perhaps not much awareness of the weather. Drag 'em into a caving club and turn them into real cavers. Then everyone will EXPECT them to do dangerous things with electron ladders.

My point? Just realised I don't really have one. Rambling of the highest order. Sorry.

 

[graham]

Saw 4 people on Saturday going into Goatchurch with 2 torches between them and normal clothing, for example.

In general, I don't think this is a bad thing although I've never been in Goatchurch. I think we shouldn't be high-and-mighty and presciptive about caves just because it's our hobby. Would the UK have produced so many explorers over centuries if people didn't do this sort of thing? I guess they're not carrying as much redundant lighting as we might carry but they're probably not crawling around/getting wet etc. Most torches don't just stop working...only speleotechnics ones when the headset parts company with the battery.

Damn right.

 

[andymorgan]

In terms of grading for Mines/Caves it soounds as if Jagman is asking if there is guidebook for the Forest? The only one I know of is the Oldham et al one , which doesn't have grades, and a couple of caves appear in the elected Caves of Britain and Ireland book.
Anyway grades in guidebooks just refer to difficulty to the 'average caver' usually, and are a bit subjective (which could be a separate discussion itself).

There is one thing about insurance, if a friend of mine has it and injures me I WILL SUE THEIR ASS OFF.
If they didn't have it, I wouldn't sue them as they have no money......

 

[Brains]

Perhaps someone who knows better can clarify, but I had the impression the PI insurance didnt apply caver to caver, only landowner / third party to caver?

 

[Lincolnshire poacher]

I think the appropriate Kit thing is a bit redundant...how often do you meet someone underground thats not fully kitted up?

I've met people underground in flipflops and no hardhats with 2 torches!. A party of 3 out for a stroll round Box mines with 1 torch between them, and funnily enough the guy leading was wearing open toe sandals. Also had no map with them as well. People do the strangest of things.........

It would be nice to have open access in the FOD but with the amount of numpties about, maybe gates are a good thing. Heres an insurence question: I have applied for BCA insurence via direct access. Cheque sent off at start of Sept, cheque cashed end of Sept. Still not got little green card. Am I covered or not?

 

[Jagman]

Would anyone accept that appropriate kit for an underground trip* should include a helmet or is a Petzl Tikka and a kagoule sufficient?

There is a reason for asking this, BTW.


* In, for example, Swildon's Hole.

Never been to Swildons do cant commont on that partiular hole, but assuming it is a little more than a walk down a single path dry tunnel my personal opinion would be no a Tikka and kagoule would not be adequate :?
I am of the opinion that kit choice is an individual decision, but we have some sort of duty to help and advise so that people can make an informed decision.
My preferred clothing is wellies, hardhat and overalls (I only do mines, no natural stuff) combined with an Oldham lamp and Self Rescuer plus back uo light. Other gear added where necessary.
The whole grading and kit recommendation idea is simply as a guide for people visiting a site they have never been to before, for example I have never been to the aforementioned Swildons, if I chose to visit it would be useful to be able to log on to the appropraite website and know what needs to be brought with me.
As I said, we will never be able or necessarily want to dictate kit requirements for individual visits (I routinely carry 60 cigarettes underground, being trapped does'nt worry me greatly but being trapped and having no fags does :shock: )

 

[Ship-badger]

Perhaps someone who knows better can clarify, but I had the impression the PI insurance didnt apply caver to caver, only landowner / third party to caver?

One of the best thing about the PI scheme is that it provides caver to caver insurance cover. So if your best mate drops a rock on your head in the dig you can sue him and he'll be covered. That is how I understand it anyway, and I think I'm right.