Anyone know who these four might be??
- Thread starter Pegasus
- Start date
cavemanmike
Well-known member
Simon has a point, if you look all there photos they seem the outdoor adventurous type who just fancied trying caving and got it wrong. With a bit of education they will probably become good cavers and mortified at what they did
Simon Wilson
New member
Pitlamp said:
Thanks, I would expect you to John.
I also scratched my name and the date on the wall in part of the GG system. It was later published in caving literature that I had done so and nobody has criticised me for doing it.
MJenkinson
Member
" also scratched my name and the date on the wall in part of the GG system"
Why?
Why?
cooleycr
Active member
For f****s sake don't let on to Kenilworth, he will go off on one and I worry that the server is getting full already!
Seriously though, a very good point about what is, and what is not, acceptable.
There are many examples of people leaving their mark in caves/mines throughout modern history and we look at their initials (or moniker) and debate who they were, when they were there, what they were doing there etc.
This seems to be generally acceptable whereas nowadays it is considered to be vandalism.
Should Neolithic cave art be removed and the surfaces be restored to their original state or is it acceptable because it is now part of our history?
Banksy - artist or vandal?.
Seriously though, a very good point about what is, and what is not, acceptable.
There are many examples of people leaving their mark in caves/mines throughout modern history and we look at their initials (or moniker) and debate who they were, when they were there, what they were doing there etc.
This seems to be generally acceptable whereas nowadays it is considered to be vandalism.
Should Neolithic cave art be removed and the surfaces be restored to their original state or is it acceptable because it is now part of our history?
Banksy - artist or vandal?.
alastairgott
Well-known member
cooleycr said:
Artist, Takes a clean (boring) wall and adds some colour to it in a comical or political way, which makes you think "is this art or vandalism". A typical arty question.
The scratching of names in walls is ok, I guess, if notable.
I believe the northern bandit would agree, as would a few other notable Derbyshire scribes.
Although the miners toast (speedwell) has had graffiti over some of the original inscriptions (or at least very near), which leads me to suggest that some of the very new graffiti here is exactly that, due to its lack of respect for older inscriptions (by writing over the top) and could only be described as "tagging", ie what neighbourhood scallys do.
Clearly the miners toast is newer than Neolithic and indeed some of the inscriptions included there are of [currently recent] historical note too (including the northern bandit) getting into speedwell from peak and various other milestones.
This in GG, I believe, is literally just tagging, but I guess we don't know what relationship these people have with Gaping Gill, whether they've been trying to get down for months making small amounts of Progress on each visit, till they eventually made their way down to the bottom. or whether they've had family members who have died down there.
All probably unlikely, but I agree with what Simon said about welcoming them into the fold rather than casting them out, they clearly have some skills in caving.
ah147
New member
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.
I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.
I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.
Mark Wright
Active member
Simon Wilson said:
I totally agree with Simon on this.
I've got my name scribed on the wall opposite the miner's toast from when we connected Peak & Speedwell together.
Mark
cooleycr
Active member
Is it a case of perspective here, after all it is not like they've smashed a load of stal to get there - so no 'real' damage in that sense, just doing what I imagine a lot of other people have done / thought about doing..
Simply by drilling a hole to fit an anchor plate the cave/mine has been damaged, perhaps in years to come that will be frowned upon?
These days with all the SM hosts, forums like this one along with printed publications, there is no need to scribe your initials in new (or re-discovered) systems/passages as a simple 'selfie' sent to (e.g) Descent should cover it and if it pleases you, post it on SM.
Personally I think that a quiet word would be suffice, as in please don't do it again, rather than a witch-hunt..
Simply by drilling a hole to fit an anchor plate the cave/mine has been damaged, perhaps in years to come that will be frowned upon?
These days with all the SM hosts, forums like this one along with printed publications, there is no need to scribe your initials in new (or re-discovered) systems/passages as a simple 'selfie' sent to (e.g) Descent should cover it and if it pleases you, post it on SM.
Personally I think that a quiet word would be suffice, as in please don't do it again, rather than a witch-hunt..
Alex
Well-known member
I also agree, at least they are not like most in this country and stewing in-front of the TV and costing the NHS money by being obese. We should not punish them for getting out more they just need to know about the sport of caving and the rules we abide by. It looks like they just got a-hold of a guide book and headed on down, being adventurous youth. They could have got into trouble of course so all the more reason to educate them on the best ways of getting underground.
cavemanmike
Well-known member
the tone of the thread is in a much better place (until kenliworth comes along :)it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed
ah147
New member
cavemanmike said:
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed
I've done both.
Hasten to add, it was well received and simply a case of not knowing it was taboo. Very apologetic etc
cavemanmike
Well-known member
ah147 said:cavemanmike said:
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed
I've done both.
Hasten to add, it was well received and simply a case of not knowing it was taboo. Very apologetic etc
well done
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
mikem said:
although whether they need permits or not remains legally unclear, of course, so probably a bad thing to worry about
cavemanmike
Well-known member
someone trying to start another crow fight :ang: :ang: :ang:andrewmc said:mikem said:
although whether they need permits or not remains legally unclear, of course, so probably a bad thing to worry about
