Anyone know who these four might be??

alanw

Well-known member
ah147 said:
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

Graffiti is one thing, going poorly equipped into a system with several non-obvious dangers is another.

There is the drop on the left just as you get to the squeeze through to the top of the main Bar Pot shaft, where the traverse line normally starts.

There is the drop on the left just before you get to SE Pot, which now has scaffold bars across it, after a previous incident.

And the drop into SE Pot itself as you scramble along the ledges.

I've personally had to wait at the bottom of the top pitch of Bar while someone got themselves stuck. Another caver turned up and I led him out through Small Mammal and we surfaced just as they were extracted.

Education is a must before they get themselves into serious trouble.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
MJenkinson said:
" also scratched my name and the date on the wall in part of the GG system"


Why?

Have you done Hensler's Pot? It's why Burnley Pitch is named. It's recorded in the annals of BPC.
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
alanw said:
Graffiti is one thing, going poorly equipped into a system with several non-obvious dangers is another.

There is the drop on the left just as you get to the squeeze through to the top of the main Bar Pot shaft, where the traverse line normally starts.

There is the drop on the left just before you get to SE Pot, which now has scaffold bars across it, after a previous incident.

And the drop into SE Pot itself as you scramble along the ledges.

I've personally had to wait at the bottom of the top pitch of Bar while someone got themselves stuck. Another caver turned up and I led him out through Small Mammal and we surfaced just as they were extracted.

Education is a must before they get themselves into serious trouble.
I know you mean well, but don't you think they knew there would be problems/dangers apart from negotiating the ropes in both directions, and that might have been part of the challenge?
They are old enough to be out on their own,  fit and able enough (if they did use knots rather than jammers) and organised enough to get there and get underground (more than could be said for a few trips I've "organised").
Apart from the graffiti I think it was a creditable achievement and it would be unfair to suggest to them that luck played more of a part in their success and survival than it does in any serious caving trip.
I wonder how many times they banged their heads?
 

mikem

Well-known member
Chocolate fireguard said:
I wonder how many times they banged their heads?
Probably not a lot, it's much harder to judge required clearance when you're wearing a helmet.
 

ah147

New member
I have been asked to post this by one of the members of the group on the trip.

As I said earlier, and others have guessed, decent lads who are just having a go to the best of their knowledge and ability. 

I'm not too sure where to start with this one as it's been a little overwhelming reading all the comments both on facebook and on the forum. I tried to make an account on the forum but there seems to be some kind of validation system so I've chosen you as you seem pretty human and understanding. I suppose it would make sense to give my viewpoint and then maybe people will realise where I'm coming from.

Me and my brother's have always been the outdoorsy type people, always willing to go out and try stuff out. About a year ago we went up to Malham cove in the morning to watch the sunrise. Up there we saw a slackline across the cove and we thought," that looks ace", so we went out and we bought ourselves a slackline and learning the skills from the internet, as most people do these days.

Around a month ago, the same thing sort of happened. We went out for a walk to Gaping Gill and was blown away by it. We ended up looking around crevices as you do, just exploring the area. We came across a hole,(to which we now know is called Bar Pot) and saw the anchors in the wall. Instinct was to look down, we realised we would need some sort of rigging equipment to get down there.

Thats's where youtube comes in, I know it's probably frowned upon using youtube to learn things but we were curious on how we would be able to decend and ascend the hole. Had a lovely time at GoOutdoors getting "all the gear" (still no idea).

We came back after practicing what we had learnt and descended down the first drop and carefully made our way downwards until we found the larger 30M drop. Gutted yet amazed we headed home and left it for yet another day.

After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

On our way back we noticed the amount of engravings saying which way was back. We then reached part of the passage where we could stand for a while and take a breather. As we were doing so we noticed that other people had engraved their names around this area of the passage and so there assumed that it must be where people engrave their initials. We also took part in this. I made sure that I did it out of the way others engravings as I didn't want to ruin an old marking. I'm not one to post everything on social media as I think it stops it from being special. We carried on our journey and returned home.

This morning my friend sent me the link to the UKcaving forum showing what we had done. I've been reading the updates on this throughout the day and taken into consideration every comment. Some are quite humbling, especially the opportunity to go with and gather some caving experience - despite doing what has upset a large amount of people from the caving community. I know the most sincere apology wouldn't change the circumstances because what's done is done. I can also tell that there's a lot of understanding people out there too who don't know where the line is drawn. We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.

Hope this is readable as I'm tired yet unable to sleep trying to get this of my chest.

Thank you!
 

Kenilworth

New member
They are old enough to be out on their own,  fit and able enough (if they did use knots rather than jammers) and organised enough to get there and get underground (more than could be said for a few trips I've "organised").
Apart from the graffiti I think it was a creditable achievement and it would be unfair to suggest to them that luck played more of a part in their success and survival than it does in any serious caving trip.

Amen again.

I did my first dozen or so pits with prusiks (learned from an old climbing book) on dynamic rope before an upgrade to jugging dynamic with handled ascenders. No clue what I was doing, but one of the great joys in life is figuring things out with your own noggin.
 

estelle

Member
Oceanrower said:
Can't really argue with that.  :beer:
Reading that, I'm amazed they got that far unscathed, but really hope that they get involved with the caving community and do some more trips, perhaps with a bit of help on safer kit and techniques as while they made a conservation mistake, they sound like the kind of keen young uns you want in your caving club.  :beer:
 

cavemanmike

Well-known member
Really commendable he has taken the time to reply on the forum with his justification, agree with Estelle that they are the kind of young lads you would want in your club
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Well done ah147 to follow up this 'story'; I take it you'll make sure that the positive comments on here get back to the lads concerned.

To get to Main Chamber the way they did takes guts and initiative ? good for them. (And did they really use knots?)
 

David Rose

Active member
These guys are exactly what the caving world needs. They have determination, guts, and a sense of adventure. I'd happily take them caving any time. Brilliant effort to descend Bar Pot, reach the main chamber, and get out safely, and obviously they have apologised for adding their names to existing graffiti. (Though even graffiti, as the amazing 18th century inscriptions in the Speedwell streamway demonstrate, can have its place).

When I was a teenager, I slowly explored much of Swildons with mates the same age, on trips made after hitching rides from London. It was incredibly exciting. This superb trip report takes me back to those distant days.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Guys - that's a really fine trip you had there.  Many of our best known cavers started out in similar fashion.  I know I did and it led to a lifetime travelling and exploring caves around the world - and a well paid job in rope access.

I suggest you contact someone like the Bradford Pothole club who have a lot to do with Gaping Gill http://www.bpc-cave.org.uk/wp/ I'm not a member myself but they always seem a welcoming can-do bunch.  There are other clubs too of course.

There shouldn't be any problem registering to use the forum  Give me an email on ukcavemail@gmail.com and I'll try to sort it out.  (y)
 

Simon Beck

Member
Well said, but they don't really strike me as club types. Personally I think they'd be wasted on a club.

From a training point of view of course I can appreciate the referral. 
 

Ian Adams

Active member
.... We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.


This goes back to a point I was making a long time back when CNCC permits (and other areas) were "under fire".  You could not get a permit if you were not in a BCA affiliated club (or something like that) and I posed the question "what if you don't know about the BCA?". I was met with many rebuttals stating "it's not hard to find out"  etc etc etc.  My reply back was "How do you know to "find out" if you don't know there is something to find out?" 

Like Donald Rumsfeld famously said with the Iraq problem;

There are things we know
There are things we know we don't know
But there are things we don't know that we don't know

I hope, now, the reality of that problem is visible and those of us who (for whatever reason) micro-manage holes learn from this just as these lads have done.

Ian
 
Why, in the name of god has this not got a gate on it, an approved access officer and a necklace of padlocks belonging to approved authorities?

If you've failed to gate a cave, you are totally responsible for this sort of craziness and damage that happens.

GET IT GATED NOOOOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!! :mad:

 

Mattrees

Member
ah147 said:
After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

:clap:

I think what you did was the best of ideas. Genuinely exciting to read, many of us spend a whole caving career trying to recapture that sense of exploration. Well done for getting yourselves to the main chamber.

There are a bunch of other cavers, club and individuals, who would be excited by your enthusiasm. They can teach you nothing about the spirit of exploration, you've got that in spades, but they could share some of our techniques and practices that would allow you to explore further, in greater safety and with less impact.

When you run out of cave in Yorkshire (!), pop down to the Forest of Dean and get in touch.

Meantime, keep on exploring!
 
Following on from what Mattrees has said above, If ever you fancy some of the old mines (or caves) in North Wales, give us a shout - these people are very active in North Wales http://www.ucet.org.uk/

What's done is done.  No harm was intended.  It's all part of the history of the cave. ;)
 
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