Are novices allowed in GB?
- Thread starter martinr
- Start date
Peter Burgess
New member
If the CCC Ltd are serious about the no novice rule, then it seems the only way to enforce it would be to identify those who ignore it and blacklist them. But in practice that would be a challenge. Whether there should be a no novice rule is another question, BUT there is one, and it is clearly being ignored and has been for many years.
cap n chris
Well-known member
caving_fox
Active member
That's quite a good trip report though - I like the author's style. Apart from helictites which you don't find in GB?
Why is there a 'no novice' rule? If there is a sensible reason for it - enforce it. If not then scrap it.
Purely in terms of caving challenge and personal safety, as well as protecting formations, I'd have thought GB wasn't a bad cave to lead novices in ?
you don't have a list of key holders?
Why is there a 'no novice' rule? If there is a sensible reason for it - enforce it. If not then scrap it.
Purely in terms of caving challenge and personal safety, as well as protecting formations, I'd have thought GB wasn't a bad cave to lead novices in ?
Sems there is something odd about the article I linked to in the original post.
I googled the first sentence of the article and found the same text here but dated 2006, not 2010
:-\
So I googled Hao-Odnla (the apparent sorce in the original post) and found this comment:
Sorry to have caused any confusion
Perhaps this topic should be deleted by the mods?
MartinR
I googled the first sentence of the article and found the same text here but dated 2006, not 2010
:-\
So I googled Hao-Odnla (the apparent sorce in the original post) and found this comment:
Sorry to have caused any confusion
Perhaps this topic should be deleted by the mods?
MartinR
graham
New member
martinr said:
No worries. I'll just re-iterate, however. The CCC LTD does not permit novices in any of its caves and only permits trips with any commercial interest at all with prior written permission. That does not just mean paid leaders, but commercial filming and any other similar ventures.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
graham said:
What is the definition of a 'paid-trip'? Here are three examples I am aware of...
1. A commercial outdoor activity company taking staff members (trainee caving leaders with experience of several caves) as part of their developmental training.
2. An army group undertaking 'adventurous training' using the cave with a group that has progressed through other Mendip caves.
3. A college running an outdoor pursuits course using the cave for the progression of students who have chosen caving as a specialist activity - trip led by their own staff.
In each of these cases there is no suggestion of any contravention of the numbers limitation or requirement for permits. In each case the instructor is at work and therefore in receipt of money. Are these paid trips?
southpembscaver
New member
caving_fox said:
Except in Helictite chamber
exsumper
New member
As with any rule, there are numerous loopholes that those who wish to circumvent it can employ. However the intention of the rule is solely cave conservation. As this is a stated aim of the BCA. Perhaps the CCC could liase with the BCA so that any instructor with a BCA cave leader qualification who is caught flouting the rules for GB, should have their qualification revoked and be blacklisted by the BCA?.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
exsumper said:
I would not agree that the examples I have given are loopholes. They are are situations I have observed in the past that are likely to recur in the future. The leaders of these trips are entitled to know if their actions are contrary to the access conditions, and what the consequences of this might be.
Peter Burgess
New member
Andy Sparrow said:
Surely the spirit of the ruling is that trips where there is financial gain directly connected with the visit are controlled. So if the person or group running the trip is paid specifically to run the trip, then that requires permission, whereas if someone receives a salary regardless of whether the trip is run or not (as in your examples) would not require permission. So it boils down to whether the incentive to run the trip into GB is to earn money, rather than to appreciate the cave or gain experience / better leadership skills etc. I expect Graham will correct me when he spots that I am wrong.
cap n chris
Well-known member
[Devil's advocate] Where are the references to commercial exclusion(s)? [/Devil's advocate]
From the relevant Regional Caving Commmittee's Access info web page (a constituent part of the BCA):
and I quote....
"G.B. CAVE
ST 4759 5623
The following information is supplied by the CCC Ltd. This Company has been set up to administer access to several square miles of land in the area surrounding Charterhouse on Mendip on which are located numerous cave entrances and sites of speleological and archaeological interest. The land is a nature reserve owned by the SWT. By agreement amongst Mendip Caving clubs, the CCC Ltd. was formed. It administers caving access to the land by means of a lease with SWT. It comprises representatives of ten caving clubs. These are the ACG, BEC, CSS, MCG, MNRC, SMCC, SBSS, TCC, UBSS and the WCC.
Having due regard for its legal obligations, the Company has made every possible effort to simplify access arrangements.
PERMITS AND INSURANCE
All cavers visiting these caves require a valid permit. Permits may be issued by any one of the ten member clubs to their own club members and guests. Permits may also be issued by the Honorary Permit Secretary of CCC Ltd. to cavers wishing to visit the area as guests of the Company. I.e. those who are unable to make a guest arrangement with a Member Club.
Guests may obtain a Temporary Permit which covers the duration of their visit to the area (14 days) and such permits are charged at 50p each. These charges provide revenue which helps to defray the costs of insurance and other expenses; the majority of such expenses being met by subvention from the Member Clubs.
The committee maintains a public liability insurance to indemnify both itself and SWT against claims arising out of caving activities.
CCC Ltd recommends, but does not require, for your own and your caving companions benefit that you are insured. BCA member clubs are able to issue temporary public liability caving insurance to their guests for a small fee.
Applications for permits must be accompanied by a completed indemnity form available from either a Member Club or from the Honorary Permit Secretary and the appropriate remittance. The Permit Secretary is currently: <snip>
ACCESS TO THE CAVES
To comply with the regulations under the licence and sub-licence, caves in the area are required to be gated. However there is no difficulty in obtaining a key for the caves concerned:- G.B. Cave, Longwood and Rhino Rift. Similarly there should be no problems in obtaining a leader for a visit to Charterhouse Cave. Other small sites in the area include Timber Hole and Read's Grotto.
Although there is no formal booking system, cavers visiting the area as guests of a Member Club or of the Committee are requested to give one month's notice of an intended visit to the Permit Secretary of CCC Ltd. This will allow the necessary arrangements to be made on time.
CONSERVATION OF THE CAVES
The Committee is deeply concerned that maximum regard is given to cave conservation and SWT insist that activities in, and around, the caves do not constitute a public health hazard. All cavers are required to abide by the following rules:-
1. No-one under the age of 16 years is permitted in the caves. Persons aged between 16 and 18 years must provide a completed parental consent form before a permit can be issued.
2. Novices must not be introduced to caving in the Charterhouse area caves.
3. Caves should be kept locked at all times.
4. The party size in any cave is restricted to 6, except in Charterhouse Cave where it is 3 plus a leader.
5. No digging is allowed nor are fixed aids to be placed without the express permission of the Company.
6. No carbide lamps are to be used in G.B. or Charterhouse Caves.
7. These caves are on Nature Reserves, respect the regulations governing these, as shown on the signs at the gates, both above and below ground.
The cave is locked and all CCC Ltd member clubs hold a key for the use of their own members and for guests. Other clubs may obtain a key, on loan, from a member club or from the CCC Ltd Honorary Permit Secretary.
The cave must remain locked at all times and parties are requested to lock the door behind them on entry and upon departure. It is the responsibility of each caver to satisfy himself that any tackle used in the cave is in good condition. The use of acetylene (carbide) lamps is not permitted in the cave and parties are limited to SIX persons including the leader. No novices or those under sixteen years old are allowed into the cave.
Last changed 22/05/2007.
Copyright (C) CSCC 2007. For the latest information see www.cscc.org.uk.
To maintain good relations with the landowner if the location is published this access information must also be published.
The CSCC Access Information is made freely available subject to the following conditions:
1. That a ?Copyright ? CSCC Year. This data is available from www.cscc.org.uk? notice is displayed.
2. That a date is displayed showing how current the data is.
3. That access information can be displayed without location information, but location information cannot be displayed without access information.
4. That digital data supplied by the CSCC must not be re-distributed.
5. By downloading the CSCC Access Guide XML File you show that you accept these conditions."
Andy Sparrow
Active member
Peter Burgess said:
OK - so it's alright for a full time member of college staff to take the group but not for a part-time employee to be contracted for that specific session?
Peter Burgess said:
Why can't it be both?
Peter Burgess
New member
Don't ask me! I am only guessing the truth.
graham
New member
Andy Sparrow said:
I'll share with you a discussion that was held between the company directors a while back.
They agreed, with regard to such situations that anyone who needs a paid leader is to be regarded as a novice and so, paid or not these trips fall outwith the novice rule.
You may not agree with that, but hey.
