Are UKCaving cavers representative of the population politically?

[2xw]

Ok boomers

 

[ChrisJC]

I raise you the NHS

Who of you hasnt used it from your birth until now?
Which of you hasnt needed it for your family?
Which of you can afford US style health insurance of medical bills?

Make no mistake, this should be the mater of concern. Use your hard one right to vote

Perhaps when you have to pay huge premiums for rescue insurance - bigger than for alpine trips - you might find it worth talking about then

Politics is in everything and everywhere. Bury your head at your peril.

I naively don't get it. Give US Pharma full access to the NHS for selling drugs and equipment to. If it's cheaper, we buy it. If it's more expensive, we don't. I could do with someone explaining how they are going to 'buy the NHS' ? (I suppose they could buy up those fantastic Labour PFI contracts but they can do that already?)

Chris.

 

[2xw]

I raise you the NHS

Who of you hasnt used it from your birth until now?
Which of you hasnt needed it for your family?
Which of you can afford US style health insurance of medical bills?

Make no mistake, this should be the mater of concern. Use your hard one right to vote

Perhaps when you have to pay huge premiums for rescue insurance - bigger than for alpine trips - you might find it worth talking about then

Politics is in everything and everywhere. Bury your head at your peril.

I naively don't get it. Give US Pharma full access to the NHS for selling drugs and equipment to. If it's cheaper, we buy it. If it's more expensive, we don't. I could do with someone explaining how they are going to 'buy the NHS' ? (I suppose they could buy up those fantastic Labour PFI contracts but they can do that already?)

Chris.

A good example is that we can use biosimilar drugs to biologics which saves a load of money - but doctors in the US can't because of IP and patents. This is the sort of access the US wants in any trade deal - the problem isn't them being a source of drug purchases but them being the exclusive source. They're also pushing for longer patents which will push up prices.

American gov has made it very clear they want privatisation as part of negotiations - but the NHS has always been cheaper than the American "free" market. So the only place the prices can go is up

 

[Ian Adams]

"Politics"

From the Latin;

Poly~Many
Tics ~ Blood sucking creatures

 

[darren]

Previous post is a perfect example of FACTBOMBING. Lots of big sounding scientific words and opinions used to support an opinion with no context or references.

Given up fact checking it, but found this

https://www.drugs.com/medical-answers/many-biosimilars-approved-united-states-3463281/

 

[2xw]

Previous post is a perfect example of FACTBOMBING. Lots of big sounding scientific words and opinions used to support an opinion with no context or references.

Given up fact checking it, but found this

https://www.drugs.com/medical-answers/many-biosimilars-approved-united-states-3463281/

Here's some sources
If US can sideline NICE they will profit
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-us-uk-trade-deal-boris-johnson-tories-nhs-drug-prices-chlorine-chicken-a9221801.html
US pays 3 times more for drugs
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pharmaceuticals-usa-comparison-idUSKCN0S61KU20151012
Some good detail
https://www.ft.com/content/7795cb64-877d-11e9-97ea-05ac2431f453
NHS to pay more for drugs under new trade deal (from the times, you can't say I'm not balanced)
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-to-pay-more-for-drugs-under-us-trade-deal-275jmq6m6
And finally, a fullfact article addressing some of labours lies/hyperbole
https://fullfact.org/health/500-million-nhs-drug-prices/

To summarise: the NHS won't stop being free but opening it up to US companies (more so than t already is) will make it more expensive. Lots of politicians of all stripes say it never will be and I'll leave it up to you to decide how much you'll trust them.

 

[darren]

I think you are getting newspapers confused with reliable sources.

The only source I would trust in your list is Fullfact. One of my go to sites for the truth. More or less is also good along with channel 4 fact check.  Just about everything said by political parties and their supporting newspapers  is either warped or just lies.

 

[droid]

"Politics"

From the Latin;

Poly~Many
Tics ~ Blood sucking creatures

I always thought a 'tic' was an involuntary muscular spasm

 

[mikem]

Given the voting turnout for the last election was almost 70%, the poll (& comments) would suggest that cavers aren't representative!

 

[nearlywhite]

Given the voting turnout for the last election was almost 70%, the poll (& comments) would suggest that cavers aren't representative!

Given the SNP are on a solid zero you might be right! Though this is a rather unscientific poll.
The results of the YouGov #GE2019 MRP model:

Con ? 359 seats / 43% vote share        vs 13.3%
Lab ? 211 / 32%                                  vs 45.6%
LD ? 13 / 14%                                    vs 17.8%
SNP ? 43 / 3%                                    vs 0%
Plaid ? 4 / 1%                                      vs 2.2%
Green ? 1 / 3%                                    vs 10%
Brexit Party ? 0 / 3%                            vs 3.3%

The only one tallying with the population is the Brexit Party - though the Lib Dems aren't massively off. Labour have had 45% of the vote historically under Wilson and Attlee, and not far off with Blair.

The (4 main) caving areas from a rough eyeballing would be 7 labour, 4 tory (skewed a touch by south wales!)

 

[mikem]

That could be due to a shortage of Scottish cavers (even in the Grampian many are English).

& share of seats is not quite the same as share of votes - last election the Tories had almost 49% of seats, but only 42% of votes (Labour were more consistent at 40% for both).

 

[Tommy]

Previous post is a perfect example of FACTBOMBING. Lots of big sounding scientific words and opinions used to support an opinion with no context or references.

LMAO, how many BIGWORDS do you count?

I see none, maybe one if you didn't make it beyond compulsory secondary education and refuse to self-educate as an adult.

 

[MarkS]

[mod]There is nothing wrong with disagreements or debate, but please keep things civil and avoid any personal comments. Thanks.[/mod]

 

[darren]

Previous post is a perfect example of FACTBOMBING. Lots of big sounding scientific words and opinions used to support an opinion with no context or references.

LMAO, how many BIGWORDS do you count?

I see none, maybe one if you didn't make it beyond compulsory secondary education and refuse to self-educate as an adult.

Good to know I've made someone happy tonight😀

Maybe I should of used the term unusual/rare/technical words.

More importantly

Step two, if fact bombing fails attack the messenger rather than the message.

 

[nearlywhite]

Step two, if fact bombing fails attack the messenger rather than the message.

It is a different person...

Also, you've just discredited the sources by saying they're in a newspaper. You've just claimed they're all invalid because they have a bias. Everyone has a bias, doesn't mean they can't make a cogent argument. You just have to go through the sources. They quote their sources in the articles btw so you can go to the source.

Step 3 play the victim and declare victory

 

[darren]

Don't think I've declared myself the victim, just pointed out standard tactics used by politicians etc. But this does bring me nicely onto

Step 3

Put words into others mouths.

 

[2xw]

As a bit of an intersection of caving and politics, the Conservative manifesto welcomes the findings of the Glover review (the one that mentioned opening up access to cavers) and their manifesto specifically includes a promise to make our landscapes "open to all".

 

[mikem]

Whilst "improving" the trespass laws...

 

[Groundhog]

Looking at the results of the poll I would say that the answer to the original posters question is no!
Yesterday I was caving with 2 labour voters and 1 tory. We were unanimous in concluding that we were all very unhappy with our parties and their leaders. 

 

[Groundhog]

I can't help but notice that cavers have managed to draw not one but two phalluses (phalli?) in the results bar chart...

Ha! It would seem that Labour has the biggest member, The Greens a much smaller one and other only has 1 b*ll