Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor

LarryFatcat

LarryFatcat

Active member
A little more info on the incident. 


The group did not descend the 'Crewe' fifth pitch.

They first experienced problems in the area furthest east on the survey. (not shown in the crewe topo)

They found 'used pots and pans and blackened timbers as well as what appeared to be a hearth in the vicinity'.

The 'Secretary of the Explosives User Group', is investigating.
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Time for an update.

Although no great public fuss has been made about it, several people have been working quietly behind the scenes to try to resolve this problem. We've got a reasonable idea of the activities of the quarries local to the site and have also mapped out the known rakes local to the shaft with a view to identifying the likelihood that gas could cross from the quarries to the shaft.

Recently, a program of regular gas tests has been undertaken with a meter lowered down the shaft from the surface. It's too early to go public with the results (actually, I've not seen any numbers yet) but these tests give an indication that measurements further into the mine are likely to be the next step.

In the meanwhile, the landowner, Mr Hadfield, has made it clear in no uncertain terms that he does not want anyone to enter the mine and it should be considered that there is no access to the mine until further notice. Please respect these wishes - local people working on behalf of DCA are doing their best to deal with the problem and while Long Rake is an important site, it's not so important that it is worth jeopardising landowner relations (or, indeed, your life) for.

There are plenty of other places in the near vicinity which will provide a sporting SRT trip, and there are other caves on Mr Hadfield's (and his neighbours') property which it would be stupid to lose access to simply because of a moment's impatience.

Nick.
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
Any update on this that can be made public?
Even if access were deemed healthy at the moment we are getting into the closed season for lambing soon.
No pressure, just been browsing CoPD and wanting to revisit old favourites and seek out new places  ;)
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Unfortunately no useful progress. The landowner has recently made it clear that they see no advantage to themselves (and some significant disadvantages) in permitting access to mines on their land so Long Rake Founder will remain closed for the foreseeable future.

That's not to say that local DCA representatives are going to simply forget about it forever, but there is unlikely to be any change in the situation in the near future.

Nick
 
J

jasonbirder

Member
Thats Bad News....been looking forward to Long Rake re-opening...as its the one "major" Peak trip i've never done...
Was anything ever resolved re the CO issue from the quarries...
And is it fair to read it that even if thats put to bed then there's unlikely to be a change short-medium term?
Is it related to the younger Mr Hadfield being more involed in the decision making process now...is he less caver-friendly?

Does the above also still apply to Bird Mine on the other side of the road?
Cheers!
 
N

nigel n

Member
Bird mine belongs to the chap at Paradise farm on the way down to Bradwell.  He is friendly and so long as you see him first there should be no problem.
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Jason,

I'm happy to answer your questions but I'd prefer not to discuss the details of this further on an open forum. PM me with an e-mail address if you want more information.

Regards

Nick. 
 
cavermark

cavermark

New member
Did the monitoring continue, or has access negotiation stopped at present? If so, is it time to reopen negotiations yet?
 
R

Ralph

New member
Source of CO. There is also the possibility that the cavers affected already had moderate levels of CO in their blood before they entered the system. (Car exhaust, gas fire, central heating). The descent into Long Rake is easy as you might expect but once a considerable effort is required (getting out) it would make a big difference.
Not wishing to make a big issue out of this or even suggest this is an explanation, just yet another possibility.
 
AR

AR

Well-known member
To the best of my knowledge the situation with Long Rake Founder is unchanged. New Venture belongs to Lafarge and they would be very unlikley to give permission for access, likewise I believe they own the workings at Bird by dint of having the mineral rights. They are also aware of discussion of previous visits to these on UKC, which led a consultant working for them to describe this site as " dedicated to extreme (and usually unauthorised) exploration "....
 
J

jasonbirder

Member
Thought the guy at the Farm going back down the hill to Bradwell controlled access to Bird Mine? And he was always pretty caver friendly if memory serves me correctly...
 
AR

AR

Well-known member
The landowner can give you permission to cross their land to the shaft, but if the mineral rights are actively held by someone else then the mine would be theirs. Where there are lead-bearing veins around a quarry in the Peak, you'll usually find the quarrying company has claimed title to them to prevent any possible expansion from being hindered by someone else having the working rights to the vein minerals.
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
There has been no change in the situation w.r.t. Long Rake Founder Shaft. Probably best not to say more on an open forum, but people are welcome to contact me privately if they wish to discuss.

IIRC, PDMHS have a lease on Bird Mine. But I could be wrong.

As risk of being accused of being a pendant by AR, and speaking as both a mine owner and a mineral rights holder, ownership of a mine and ownership (or lease) of the mineral rights are not the same thing. Mining and quarrying companies have to pay the mineral rights owner (and continue to pay them), they can't just claim rights and then sit on them. As a mineral rights owner you can lease the rights for different minerals to different extraction companies if you want to (although this might be tricky in practice). It is, however, fairly common for one extraction company to pay multiple mineral rights holders for rights to extract different minerals from the same hole.

(To be fair to AR, I think he knows this, it's just a more complex position than can be expressed in a couple of lines in a forum post!)

Nick.
 
AR

AR

Well-known member
I was more thinking of the issue that could arise with someone claiming the lead rights under the 1851 or 1852 acts, while the rights to the gangue minerals are in different hands, which could enable the owner of the lead rights to prevent the gangue being mined without their consent. I agree you can't really sum the legal nuances and centuries of precedent in the Barmote court up in a few lines....

For the record, PDMHS do not and have not had any sort of lease on Bird Mine. Until recently, we had a licence to conserve the surface remains at New Venture, but that licence was explicitly not a lease and it also stated we could only go into the workings if we wrote to the quarry manager to request permission on every occasion we wished to do so. With collapses observed at surface and an even greater risk of encountering CO than in LRF, it was decided that we weren't even going to think about asking for permission to go down until the area of quarry adjacent had stopped working and any unstable deads underground would hopefully have felt the call of gravity.....
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
2008 for the original issue, and 8 years since an update here...
Any updates, news or hopes for reopening?
 
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