Peter Burgess
New member
So whether something is a cave or not depends on the direction of the gravitational force. Isaac Newton has a lot to answer for.
BCA Council Meeting - CRoW Discussions
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cap n chris
Well-known member
Beardy said:
A photograph of hundreds of man-made caves nestling beneath the undulating surface?
cap n chris
Well-known member
I'm enjoying the interesting debate; it's a nice (relevant) version of the "Argument of the Beard".
Page 61, 2nd para onward:
http://neglectedbooks.com/Straight_and_Crooked_Thinking.pdf
At what point does the surface depression magically transform into a cave? I vouch that the depression/pit remains part of the surface of the planet; it is not a cave if daylight can reach it.
It has major relevance to the CRoW debate because a cave needs to be legally defined; how else can it be defined other than by saying a cave commences where daylight ends?
Page 61, 2nd para onward:
http://neglectedbooks.com/Straight_and_Crooked_Thinking.pdf
At what point does the surface depression magically transform into a cave? I vouch that the depression/pit remains part of the surface of the planet; it is not a cave if daylight can reach it.
It has major relevance to the CRoW debate because a cave needs to be legally defined; how else can it be defined other than by saying a cave commences where daylight ends?
Peter Burgess
New member
Tis a shaft, Chris. Does a shaft have to be deeper than it is wide? What if it's a rift, longer than it is deep? When does a shaft become a rift?
cap n chris
Well-known member
Interesting thoughts arise. How many different terms for caves (which aren't caves) exist?
Beardy
Member
Cap'n Chris said:I'm enjoying the interesting debate; it's a nice (relevant) version of the "Argument of the Beard".
Page 61, 2nd para onward:
http://neglectedbooks.com/Straight_and_Crooked_Thinking.pdf
At what point does the surface depression magically transform into a cave? I vouch that the depression/pit remains part of the surface of the planet; it is not a cave if daylight can reach it.
It has major relevance to the CRoW debate because a cave needs to be legally defined; how else can it be defined other than by saying a cave commences where daylight ends?
4. The activity of caving or potholing with which this opinion is concerned has been defined in my instructions as being normally an act of progression through passages in rock which usually have a ?roof? of rock, but which may include large entrances or shafts which are open to the sky. Death?s Head Hole, for example, has an entrance shaft open to the sky which is 80m deep. The passages may be natural, or may be abandoned mines. Some natural caves have entrances which have been dug out or enlarged. Some caves have structures, which may include gates or other barriers (such as a lid), at their entrances, through which cavers pass to enter the cave system.
RobinGriffiths
Well-known member
I think Defra have muddied the water with their 'daylight'. At least 'open air' suggested an overhead aspect. How much daylight is 'enough' daylight ?
Consider this south facing cave entrance on 21st June (lunchtime).
Consider this south facing cave entrance on 21st June (lunchtime).
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
And does it need to be direct sunlight (i.e. able to see the Sun) or reflected sunlight - and if so, how much? Do you have to see the Sun at all times, or does it just need to be possible at the right time of year? There are plenty of crags (bits of Cheddar Gorge for example, since someone brought it up earlier) which never see the Sun directly in winter...
Peter Burgess
New member
If you want legislation regarding caves to work, then you must have a legal definition of a cave. It's not being daft! When legislation on quarries and mines was enacted, there had to be a definition of a mine or a quarry for the legislation to work properly. If you don't insist on having legislation to cover caving, then you don't need to go through all this ridiculous nonsense.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Brains said:
Indeed, and the Law should not be made to be an Ass. Hence definition is important. Everyone seems to know what they mean by the term cave, so let's have some attempts at a useful definition!
And it's not good enough to say "because I say it is". 
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Just imagine for one minute you are a SPAD tasked by the secretary of state to consider whether CRoW should apply to caving. You might think it reasonable to consider how to define a cave; you might also think it reasonable to take into account what the caving community want; you might also consider balancing that against what their land-owning lordships want.
Even though I think CRoW should (indeed does) apply to caving I would be hard pressed to go to the secretary of state with a clear statement. The cavers can?t agree what a cave is, let alone whether they want CRoW, the landowners range from interested to hostile. You also have the concern of not absolving mine owners of their duties for abandoned workings. You are only dealing with a few thousand cavers, not exactly a constituency that is going to win you an election.
The anti?s know this and know that if they keep spreading enough fear, uncertainty and doubt then the powers that be will leave this can-of-worms alone. For that reason, despite the hard work of many cavers, I really don?t think DEFRA will change its mind.
FWIW I think the above attempts at defining a cave miss a few things (perhaps deliberately?)
[list type=decimal]
[*] caves are naturally occurring cavities in the ground
[*]they extend below the local land surface by more than the narrowest dimension of the cave measured at the point where the land surface could reasonably be assumed to be if the cavity were not there
[/list]
Even though I think CRoW should (indeed does) apply to caving I would be hard pressed to go to the secretary of state with a clear statement. The cavers can?t agree what a cave is, let alone whether they want CRoW, the landowners range from interested to hostile. You also have the concern of not absolving mine owners of their duties for abandoned workings. You are only dealing with a few thousand cavers, not exactly a constituency that is going to win you an election.
The anti?s know this and know that if they keep spreading enough fear, uncertainty and doubt then the powers that be will leave this can-of-worms alone. For that reason, despite the hard work of many cavers, I really don?t think DEFRA will change its mind.
FWIW I think the above attempts at defining a cave miss a few things (perhaps deliberately?)
[list type=decimal]
[*] caves are naturally occurring cavities in the ground
[*]they extend below the local land surface by more than the narrowest dimension of the cave measured at the point where the land surface could reasonably be assumed to be if the cavity were not there
[/list]
Peter Burgess
New member
Well, it is the problem, if DEFRA have a definition that some people don't accept. So either accept the definition or provide a credible alternative.
I've had a lot of discussion with DEFRA and they do tie themselves in knots with this one. They are not saying that you cannot enter a cave. They do not define a cave as only beginning at the limit of daylight. What they are saying is that you can descend a cave as far as it remains 'open-air' (or more correctly 'open-air recreation') and that limit is likely to be something like to the limit of daylight. The alternative view is that all caving is 'open-air recreation' as this is more properly meaning 'outdoor recreation' or not within a building... etc ....etc ....etc.....
This all becomes complicated for them because they saw no need to list caving and potholing in the list of excluded activities. I have suggested that this was a mistake as we would all know where we stood if caving had been excluded. They do not consider this a mistake as they think it is clear. However, it is not clear, and he we are on the merry go round.... merry go round.... merry go round...
This all becomes complicated for them because they saw no need to list caving and potholing in the list of excluded activities. I have suggested that this was a mistake as we would all know where we stood if caving had been excluded. They do not consider this a mistake as they think it is clear. However, it is not clear, and he we are on the merry go round.... merry go round.... merry go round...
It may be worth noting that CRoW talks about "open air recreation" and Defra's argument appears to be that a cave is not "open air".
There are various definitions of "open air", as has been explained with reference to the CRoW discussions in parliament deciding that they didn't need to define what "open air" actually meant because everybody knew what they were talking about. However, if you look it up in the OED, a definition given for "open air" is "out of doors".
If, in turn, you look up "outdoors" you will find "in or into the open air", and also "outdoor pursuits" is defined as "... leisure activities undertaken out of doors".
However, the Sports Council (and the former CCPR), have always classed caving as an "outdoor pursuit" when dealing with which part of sporting activities it comes under and at one time actually gave the old NCA a grant on that basis.
In other words, "outdoor" and "open air" appear to be synonymous according to the dictionary, i.e. they mean the same thing.
So we have the fascinating spectacle of one government organisation (Sports Council) conceding that caving IS an outdoor pursuit, i.e. it takes place in the open air - whilst another (Defra) claims that caves are NOT "the open air" so it is NOT an outdoor sport.
Are you still with me?
As Badlad says, it's a merry go round ...
There are various definitions of "open air", as has been explained with reference to the CRoW discussions in parliament deciding that they didn't need to define what "open air" actually meant because everybody knew what they were talking about. However, if you look it up in the OED, a definition given for "open air" is "out of doors".
If, in turn, you look up "outdoors" you will find "in or into the open air", and also "outdoor pursuits" is defined as "... leisure activities undertaken out of doors".
However, the Sports Council (and the former CCPR), have always classed caving as an "outdoor pursuit" when dealing with which part of sporting activities it comes under and at one time actually gave the old NCA a grant on that basis.
In other words, "outdoor" and "open air" appear to be synonymous according to the dictionary, i.e. they mean the same thing.
So we have the fascinating spectacle of one government organisation (Sports Council) conceding that caving IS an outdoor pursuit, i.e. it takes place in the open air - whilst another (Defra) claims that caves are NOT "the open air" so it is NOT an outdoor sport.
Are you still with me?
As Badlad says, it's a merry go round ...
Aubrey
Member
I do not think caving can be called an open air activity because 'open air' implies fresh air.
Some caves frequently have bad air or very high levels of CO2 and there is a lot of documentation about Radon in caves. If the caves were open air then these gases would be immediately dissipated into the atmosphere.
Some caves frequently have bad air or very high levels of CO2 and there is a lot of documentation about Radon in caves. If the caves were open air then these gases would be immediately dissipated into the atmosphere.
