BCA resources directed towards 'commercial caving' (spin off from CNCC thread)

[damian]

The University training situation can solely be laid at the BCA's door, due to their active promotion of commercial training qualifications and quite deliberate denigration of other training routes; e.g. learning by experience or from training provided by experienced amateur cavers or clubs.

Perhaps you ought to read the leaflet of Guidelines to Uni Clubs ... it says virtually the opposite of what you have just implied BCA say.

 

[exsumper]

Rubbish  Commercialisation has been part of the agenda all along. First you tried to destroy  the influence of clubs, second you then tried to destroy the amateur ethos.

If by "destroying the influence of clubs" you mean allowing individual members to vote but still allowing clubs to veto anything in a separate vote, then maybe. I sort of take your point about SRT kits, but that is a fairly isolated example and certainly doesn't point to BCA becoming massively commercial. Also, at the risk of being fussy, in the 90s it was NCA not BCA.

I'm not interested in the rest of the crap you've spouted, In common with a lot of other cavers I'm just sick of the Hypocrisy, lies, deceit, and pathetic games, engaged in by some of the more senior representatives of our national and regional caving bodies!

With respect, that's not very nice. I don't think I have every lied, been hypocritical or played "pathetic games" while involved in BCA. Everything I have ever done has been precisely as I have believed BCA Council (as the senior democratic body) wishes me to. In my time as secretary (5 yrs I think) I am not aware of any attempt by Council to hide anything ... and I'd have a pretty good idea if it did. We publish everything, allow anyone who wishes to to attend our meetings, invite voting representatives from all the Regions and Constituent Bodies and are generally as open as I think it is possible to be.

However you describe it; Both the CNCC and BCA have been  promoting and suggesting  to landowners "Cash for Access" !!!!!!

P.S. If you think this a little harsh or unfair, just reflect on the fact that the cash for access issue has only come to light as a result of recent activism on this forum!!  Prior to this, the only cavers that knew amateur caving was being sold down the river  were officials of the BCA/CNCC!!  :spank: :spank:

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. BCA does not equal CNCC. We are separate bodies and in fact constitutionally BCA is not allowed to interfere in CNCC's affairs at all. This is exactly the same with CSCC, or indeed any other Region or Constituent Body. BCA has not suggested or promoted cash for access, nor I suspect will it ever.

So cut it out or f*** off!!! :icon_321:

I'll ignore that particularly unpleasant line.

Oh the irony! the crux of my criticism in the BCA's eyes, being that in the nineties they were the NCA and not the BCA.

Encapsulates the attitude of the officers of the BCA perfectly: Thanks Damien 

For your information this isn't about being nice This is about a lot of cavers being very angry that their so called representatives are fucking up their greatest love!

 

[exsumper]

I am not against instructed caving; many of my friends make a living in this way and they're very good at it. The ones I know are just ordinary cavers anyway. I'm pretty sure they also include conservation education as standard when dealing with clients (which I mention to make Graham feel a bit happier).

I am not against instructed caving either. However, I am against the way that it is carried out by certain 'qualified' people. I can attest to intentional flouting of access agreements and when I make the point about 'assets' to be expolited, I am merely reporting conversations that I was party to.

What I do find slightly concerning is an assumption that people who gain qualifications to allow them to lead less experienced people are somehow superior to regular club cavers. I don't think this is a problem at all within our own community but it may be how uninitiated outsiders see the situation. As a result it may be that people who act as instructors are the first to be consulted by the media for example, whenever there is some newsworthy caving related happening. If that's the case then such instructors have quite a responsibility to give a well rounded response, taking into account the overall caving community's interests. I have to say that, in my experience, that does generally happen.

Most of the 'legends' of British cave exploration had little if anything to do with paid instruction. I suspect that the reasons for this can be found in Chris Bonnington's autobiography. Worth reading anyway.

But the real forcing ground for speleological endeavour remains the many clubs and individual cavers who do it very competently, as a pastime.

Happily, that's exactly where many instructors originate anyway.

Ironic, isn't it.

I suspect BCA's attitude has always (rightly) been "Can we afford not to deal with commercial caving interests?".

This is a two-way street and the traffic most be carefully monitored.

The issue about the numbers of folk entering caving via a commercial operation is not an easy one. When many people who use this forum started caving there were hardly any instructors! The proportion of entrants from an instructed beginning is probably much higher among younger cavers. In some cases they may have had no choice in this - for example many university unions seem to be insisting on student clubs having the involvement of a professional caver, even though the clubs may be entirely competent to look after their freshers themselves. (Perhaps it's yet another classic example of people mixing up the true meanings of "professional" and "competent".) But let's not blame our caving instructors for this - it's more to do with the silly way our legal system "works" in this country these days.

The legal system in the UK works well, which is why the Jib Tunnel case failed against Dr Farrer but succeeded against the Scout Association. The University Union thing is a red herring, as anyone who knew the Bristol safety officer who was made redundant a few years back will tell you. Jim had no problem with the way UBSS operated. Others use the law as an excuse, 'cos it certainly ain't a reason.

I think I may have met Jim or one of his colleagues quite recently! lets just say that he wasn't very complimentary about the former senior police officer who may or may not have made him and his colleagues redundant?

 

[exsumper]

Taken from the current CNCC thread:

The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers. 

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers. 


Examples, please....

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

Examples, please....

"The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers".

Examples. The national bolt scheme and the national cave leader scheme.  The developement and operation of both of these schemes were and are largely financed by ordinary cavers. They are to a great extent, mostly for the benefit of the commercial sector.

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

Examples 2 As far as pointless and unecessary bolts paid for by the BCA is concerned. Hunters Hole springs to mind.  It is arguable whether the re-bolting of many of the routes in Thrupe Lane Swallet was necessary; For some of which natural belays exist .

The prize for the cave with the most ludicrous, uneccessary, and pointless bolts, installed by a commercial operator; is won hands down by Mangle Hole.

For those who don't know Mangle Hole; it consists of a narrow rift angled at forty five degrees, the descent of which leads to a series of chambers.  To demonstrate how ludicrous the situation is, I present  the following anecdote:

In the nineties I did a solo trip into this cave to dive the sumps. For the descent of the cave I used a handline, whilst simultaneously carrying full cave diving equipment;including bottles!; in three tackle bags suspended from a sling around my shoulders. Thats how necessary some of these stupid bolt routes are!!

The prize for the cave with the most uneccessary bolts installed by and for the benefit of a commercial operator has to has to go to Gough's Cave in Cheddar. For the numerous pointless bolts installed within.

Pray tell if any of the examples I have given are factually incorrect?

the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients

Hunters Hole - the only cave on the list which is ever likely to be used by the 'commercial' sector.  I am probably the most regular 'commercial' user of this cave - amounting to about 10 times a year.  Hunters Hole is Mendip's most popular SRT training and practice cave and as such is used regularly by club cavers, who, without doubt, represent the largest user group for this cave.

Thrupe Lane -  You seem to be making the mistake of assuming that if the installer is a club caver, and a professional instructor, their only possible motive for undertaking the work is personal gain.  You really think that instructors are running commercial trips into Thrupe Lane?  It's far from an ideal venue, and one that I gave up using about 20 years ago.

Mangle Hole - the same observation applies.  You are again assuming that if the installer is a club caver, and a professional instructor, their only possible motive for undertaking the work is personal gain.  But, please, use some common sense - is anyone really going to use Mangle Hole as a 'commercial' venue?  It's a ridiculous concept.

Gough's Cave - most bolting was done by members of Cheddar Caving Club in order to create a venue for club training.  This venue is very rarely made available to instructors. 

So in conclusion your assertion that the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clientsis factually far from correct.

You appear to have ignored or forgotten the pointless or uneccessary bolts part of my post.
Which is most certainly factually correct! As for not using some of these sites for commercial gain perhaps you should consult with your colleague capn chris and at least start singing from the same hymn book.

I'm also quite interested as to why both of you only started posting at the end of quite a long running discussion. Did you get the nod from colleagues Up North? 

 

[SpeleoTrog]

[quote author=exsumper]This is about a lot of cavers being very angry that their so called representatives are fucking up their greatest love!
[/quote]
Really? This thread appears to be about a handful of angry individuals. I speak to a lot of cavers in the real world away from the internet and I'm struggling to find any evidence that backs up your outlandish claim above.

If there really are "a lot of cavers" then they'd have a strong mandate to elect like minded individuals to the relevant committees and get things run the way to that suits them. The fact that they don't seem to be able to do that would suggest that there aren't as many angry cavers as you think. In fact my biggest source of anger is your consistently unpleasant attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with your take on life, the universe and everything. Perhaps you should take some of your own, so pleasantly worded, advice

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Pete K]

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Taken from the current CNCC thread:

The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers. 

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers. 


Examples, please....

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

Examples, please....

"The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers".

Examples. The national bolt scheme and the national cave leader scheme.  The developement and operation of both of these schemes were and are largely financed by ordinary cavers. They are to a great extent, mostly for the benefit of the commercial sector.

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

Examples 2 As far as pointless and unecessary bolts paid for by the BCA is concerned. Hunters Hole springs to mind.  It is arguable whether the re-bolting of many of the routes in Thrupe Lane Swallet was necessary; For some of which natural belays exist .

The prize for the cave with the most ludicrous, uneccessary, and pointless bolts, installed by a commercial operator; is won hands down by Mangle Hole.

For those who don't know Mangle Hole; it consists of a narrow rift angled at forty five degrees, the descent of which leads to a series of chambers.  To demonstrate how ludicrous the situation is, I present  the following anecdote:

In the nineties I did a solo trip into this cave to dive the sumps. For the descent of the cave I used a handline, whilst simultaneously carrying full cave diving equipment;including bottles!; in three tackle bags suspended from a sling around my shoulders. Thats how necessary some of these stupid bolt routes are!!

The prize for the cave with the most uneccessary bolts installed by and for the benefit of a commercial operator has to has to go to Gough's Cave in Cheddar. For the numerous pointless bolts installed within.

Pray tell if any of the examples I have given are factually incorrect?

the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients

Hunters Hole - the only cave on the list which is ever likely to be used by the 'commercial' sector.  I am probably the most regular 'commercial' user of this cave - amounting to about 10 times a year.  Hunters Hole is Mendip's most popular SRT training and practice cave and as such is used regularly by club cavers, who, without doubt, represent the largest user group for this cave.

Thrupe Lane -  You seem to be making the mistake of assuming that if the installer is a club caver, and a professional instructor, their only possible motive for undertaking the work is personal gain.  You really think that instructors are running commercial trips into Thrupe Lane?  It's far from an ideal venue, and one that I gave up using about 20 years ago.

Mangle Hole - the same observation applies.  You are again assuming that if the installer is a club caver, and a professional instructor, their only possible motive for undertaking the work is personal gain.  But, please, use some common sense - is anyone really going to use Mangle Hole as a 'commercial' venue?  It's a ridiculous concept.

Gough's Cave - most bolting was done by members of Cheddar Caving Club in order to create a venue for club training.  This venue is very rarely made available to instructors. 

So in conclusion your assertion that the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clientsis factually far from correct.

You appear to have ignored or forgotten the pointless or uneccessary bolts part of my post.
Which is most certainly factually correct! As for not using some of these sites for commercial gain perhaps you should consult with your colleague capn chris and at least start singing from the same hymn book.

I'm also quite interested as to why both of you only started posting at the end of quite a long running discussion. Did you get the nod from colleagues Up North? 

Whether or not the bolts are necessary is not the principle issue.  The issue is that you said the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.  This statement is not true.  The only cave on the list that I was personally involved in eco-bolting is Hunters Hole.    Cap'nChris is one of the most dedicated and active club cavers in the Mendip region and he is also a professional instructor.  Believe it or not, Alex, a caver can be both, and can bolt a cave purely for the benefit of the caving community, rather than for financial reward.  Did I get 'a nod from my colleagues up north?', no, Alex, it was a bigot from down south who prompted me to post.

 

[Burt]

hey, cool it down guys. There's kids in Africa starving right now!!!



we are the world........

 

[exsumper]

[quote author=exsumper]This is about a lot of cavers being very angry that their so called representatives are fucking up their greatest love!

Really? This thread appears to be about a handful of angry individuals. I speak to a lot of cavers in the real world away from the internet and I'm struggling to find any evidence that backs up your outlandish claim above.

If there really are "a lot of cavers" then they'd have a strong mandate to elect like minded individuals to the relevant committees and get things run the way to that suits them. The fact that they don't seem to be able to do that would suggest that there aren't as many angry cavers as you think. In fact my biggest source of anger is your consistently unpleasant attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with your take on life, the universe and everything. Perhaps you should take some of your own, so pleasantly worded, advice

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
[/quote]

I think you'll find that a lot of cavers don't want cash for access. If I need to be unpleasant to stop it so be it! Some people do find the truth unpalatable.

Have a read of the original post this one is a spin off from if you wish to see a lot of angry cavers!  :hug: :kiss2:

 

[exsumper]

The University training situation can solely be laid at the BCA's door, due to their active promotion of commercial training qualifications and quite deliberate denigration of other training routes; e.g. learning by experience or from training provided by experienced amateur cavers or clubs.

Perhaps you ought to read the leaflet of Guidelines to Uni Clubs ... it says virtually the opposite of what you have just implied BCA say.

Its not what they say, its what they do that matters!

 

[SpeleoTrog]

Its not what they say, its what they do that matters!

A very good point
So - apart from saying a lot, what have you DONE to improve the situation you're so worked up over

 

[exsumper]

Its not what they say, its what they do that matters!

A very good point
So - apart from saying a lot, what have you DONE to improve the situation you're so worked up over

Helping to uncover it in the first place. That's a start, and asking my club secretary to write a letter of complaint. As I'm not a member of a CNCC member club that's about all I can do.
If you can't see what's wrong with "cash for access" you'll never understand!

 

[Smiley Alan]

If you can't see what's wrong with "cash for access" you'll never understand!

im pretty  sure i can see whats likly to happen and it  seems pretty obviose to me that the commmerical guys should'nt be charged  more for access than ordinry cavers but i  think the problem is lots of people think they should pay more . i do'nt think they have  thought it through , as its easy to see what will end  up happening .

 

[SpeleoTrog]

If you can't see what's wrong with "cash for access" you'll never understand!

That may be true but you'll never get anyone to understand if all you do when they question or disagree with you is throw abuse and insults around.

 

[exsumper]

Rubbish  Commercialisation has been part of the agenda all along. First you tried to destroy  the influence of clubs, second you then tried to destroy the amateur ethos.

If by "destroying the influence of clubs" you mean allowing individual members to vote but still allowing clubs to veto anything in a separate vote, then maybe. I sort of take your point about SRT kits, but that is a fairly isolated example and certainly doesn't point to BCA becoming massively commercial. Also, at the risk of being fussy, in the 90s it was NCA not BCA.

I'm not interested in the rest of the crap you've spouted, In common with a lot of other cavers I'm just sick of the Hypocrisy, lies, deceit, and pathetic games, engaged in by some of the more senior representatives of our national and regional caving bodies!

With respect, that's not very nice. I don't think I have every lied, been hypocritical or played "pathetic games" while involved in BCA. Everything I have ever done has been precisely as I have believed BCA Council (as the senior democratic body) wishes me to. In my time as secretary (5 yrs I think) I am not aware of any attempt by Council to hide anything ... and I'd have a pretty good idea if it did. We publish everything, allow anyone who wishes to to attend our meetings, invite voting representatives from all the Regions and Constituent Bodies and are generally as open as I think it is possible to be.

However you describe it; Both the CNCC and BCA have been  promoting and suggesting  to landowners "Cash for Access" !!!!!!

P.S. If you think this a little harsh or unfair, just reflect on the fact that the cash for access issue has only come to light as a result of recent activism on this forum!!  Prior to this, the only cavers that knew amateur caving was being sold down the river  were officials of the BCA/CNCC!!  :spank: :spank:

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. BCA does not equal CNCC. We are separate bodies and in fact constitutionally BCA is not allowed to interfere in CNCC's affairs at all. This is exactly the same with CSCC, or indeed any other Region or Constituent Body. BCA has not suggested or promoted cash for access, nor I suspect will it ever.

So cut it out or f*** off!!! :icon_321:

I'll ignore that particularly unpleasant line.

So how do you explain this then damian?

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:council_meetings:council_minutes_2013-10-05_draft.pdf

From Appendix 1 Why do you think that Both the South Wales Caving Club and the Charterhouse Caving Committee put the same interpretation on the proposals as I do then??
Are they Unpleasant too?

As I've said numerous times before! I only get  unpleasant when people try to deceive or lie to me. When you and your CNCC/BCA colleagues criticise me for getting a little tetchy, you need to remind yourselves that manners are a social contract and only apply when both parties behave in an open and honest manner and treat each other with respect!  Lies, deceit and indulging in political games, negate that contract.

How do you think that Landowners will feel when they find out that the BCA have been playing underhand tricks with them? They'll think that the BCA have nothing but contempt for them and are treating them like cunts!

And before anyone starts saying that I shouldn't be saying this on an open forum. Landowners aren't stupid and will find out what the BCA are doing anyway! If anyone would like to see quite how comtemptuos the BCA are treating landowners read the following from the CSCC Minutes

10) BCA Rep?s Report
10.1 BCA draft report on commercial caving, this was discussed in some detail, it
was agreed the document needs to be clear that there are different types of
commercial caving and clearly differentiate between commercial caving for profit
and commercial caving for safety and for training. It needs to be clear to both
cavers and non-cavers. It needs to be worded carefully so it does not become a
means by which landowners can deny access. There was agreement with and
support for the comments made by the Charterhouse Caving Company. CSCC has
concerns about it being published and turned into a leaflet and made available to
landowners as it would raise awareness of commercial caving to landowners and
potentially create access issues which currently do not exist. It was agreed that the
document should not be published in any form and only be made available
internally as information to aid C&A Officers or others when negotiating access.

Damian
Just a few tips to recap

Treat everyone with respect and in an honest and open manner and you won't have any problems! And don't treat landowners and ordinary cavers like cunts!!!

 

[Peter Burgess]

I didn't notice any personal insults or disrespectful comments in the SWCC or CCC letters. Just properly reasoned concerns. Nothing unpleasant there at all.

 

[exsumper]

I didn't notice any personal insults or disrespectful comments in the SWCC or CCC letters. Just properly reasoned concerns. Nothing unpleasant there at all.

Good evening Roger

 

[damian]

From Appendix 1 Why do you think that Both the South Wales Caving Club and the Charterhouse Caving Committee put the same interpretation on the proposals as I do then??
Are they Unpleasant too?

No. They are polite. You apparently are not.

How do you think that Landowners will feel when they find out that the BCA have been playing underhand tricks with them?

You are seriously playing with the truth. How on earth can you possibly say BCA has been underhand when about 12 months ago it launched a consultation, received large quantites of replies, then pulled together a draft proposal, which was again put our for consultation. Following this there were a fair number of replies, which were discussed at a meeting, decisions were made and the full Minutes of the meeting will be published on the internet. I'm struggling to see anything underhand in that.

Just a few tips to recap
Treat everyone with respect and in an honest and open manner and you won't have any problems!

I can't quite believe I'm reading this!

 

[graham]

How on earth can you possibly say BCA has been underhand when about 12 months ago it launched a consultation, received large quantites of replies, then pulled together a draft proposal, which was again put our for consultation. Following this there were a fair number of replies, which were discussed at a meeting, decisions were made and the full Minutes of the meeting will be published on the internet. I'm struggling to see anything underhand in that.

I look forward to seeing the minutes of that meeting. I hope that this time the concerns raised by CCC Ltd and by SWCC and echoed by CSCC have been properly addressed.

 

[damian]

Graham - I will be writing to you the week after next (once the draft Minutes have been approved by the rest of Exec, and I have a week off work) to give you some feedback. Thanks for your patience on this one!