JoshW
Well-known member
The BCA have just posted a statement on their website, which should be in no way controversial in any way shape or form, but I’m certain that someone will find it so.
In regional news, we have three new connections in Ogof Agen Allwedd, a report on the iron mines of Anjou, an extension to Big Sink Cave in the Forest of Dean, a new dig in Yorkshire's Marble Steps Pot, student parties, an obituary for Tony Boycott, a tight find in the Peak District and a discovery in County Kerry with extensive formations.
I think it’s nonsense. Sorry. We are not at work, so forget the HSE. There is zero obligation on any member of a uni club (in particular) including the “leader” to take responsibility for anything based on competence they prob don’t have. They cannot possibly ensure a trip is “safe”, they cannot assess leaders. All they can do is just give it a shot. They cannot be held responsible if it goes to shit, and I am quite concerned about this sort of thing being bandied about when something does happen as there is a strong suggestion that you should acquire competence (somehow). Recent events show the sort of thing that happens when you get the slightest break in the already very tenuous transfer of knowledge from one year to next.
The BCA have just posted a statement on their website, which should be in no way controversial in any way shape or form, but I’m certain that someone will find it so.
I’m not sure what circular argument you’re referring to by this point in your rant. Can you clarify.It was this type of circular argument that got uni clubs shut down in the past by universities.
I haven’t said that anywhere at all.@JoshW Just curious - please could you clarify that the statement means that being covered by BCA insurance relies on leaders or trainers being competent? If that is the case, do you know who would decide what is competent - would it be the insurers?
Acquiring competence means you need to go caving when you don’t have it yet. But you can’t go caving because you don’t have competence.So I’m going to pre-face this by saying I am not a legal expert, just someone who happens to manage the BCA insurance policy.
Public Indemnity policies are designed to cover the costs of being sued for causing injury to a third party or the property of a third party. The insurance therefore doesn’t state what you can and can’t be found liable for, it only states in what instances it can and will step in to cover the costs (up to a limit).
The law and the interpretation of the law (using previous cases and the interpretation of the law in those cases) along with the specifics of the case will dictate whether you can be sued for your action by the injured party (or party whose property was damaged).
There is an extremely limited number of cases to base the interpretation of the law on with regards to recreational leadership, however it would not be unreasonable to believe that a a club running trips for novices would have suitably competent people running those trips.
I sat on the fence about needing the HSE definition in here and so here is some background that lead me to including it. Some universities are now looking to require qualifications as demonstration of competency. In a recent example someone within BCA had given the university the answer they wanted: that qualifications are a suitable requirement for recreational cavers. One of this statements primary aims is to put this argument to bed once and for all (and for what it’s worth this has worked).
Universities are ‘at work’ when engaging with university caving clubs and so using language and definitions that are familiar to them will help clubs to ensure their continuation.
I’m not sure what circular argument you’re referring to by this point in your rant. Can you clarify.
Ahh gotcha, yeah the old catch 22. Spend a lot of time explaining this to unions. The safest way to get good at caving is to go caving!Acquiring competence means you need to go caving when you don’t have it yet. But you can’t go caving because you don’t have competence.
Are you serious that someone in BCA told a uni that people needed qualifications? To get any caving qualification you need experience. See above.
Apologies, somewhat snappy from me!Thanks, my mistake. I put two and two together and made five.
The BCA have just posted a statement on their website, which should be in no way controversial in any way shape or form, but I’m certain that someone will find it so.
You’re the one that’s used the word police (and appoint for that matter).It states that club has a reaponsibily to police leaders
Well what does it mean then ?You’re the one that’s used the word police (and appoint for that matter).
If ‘random caving club’ and their committee say Tony the psychopath is running a trip and Tony characteristically makes bad decisions and injures the whole party, I’d say there is going to be reasonable chance that the committee end up having to demonstrate why they thought it would be okay for him to take people cavingYou have earlier said choice of unsuitable leaders would be at the committee's door (point 2 of your follow up)
Technically not a governing body. Just an association of clubs and individuals. Some will hang draw and quarter for stating the BCA is a governing bodybehalf the of the governing body