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Belay belts

I've not been to Bar Pot all that much, it's always seen as the place you go when you run out of imagination, I'd pick Wade's or Small Mammal and now Stile or OBJ to boot.
However, my one experience in Flood Entrance was zero fun as I had to be recovered so I resent that place and have not been back since.
 
Electron Ladders can be difficult to climb and aren't classed as PPE - climbing one without a lifeline is seen in many circles as being dangerous. And yes, using SRT instead is much more sensible - ladders are horrid.
IIRC ladders are only rated to cope with up to 0.5kN shock load. I have witnessed two breaking, one was almost brand new.
 
When we say "ladder" here, are we talking about cable-ladders, or welded (rigid) ladders?

I guess I'm a bit puzzled by this - ladder AND life line? Sounds like belt & suspenders. If the ladders are really that un-trustworthy & dangerous enough to need a lifeline, why not just yank them, and use SRT instead?
They also don't suffer rope rub, so if you've got twisty pitches it can easier to drop a ladder rather than rebelay/deviate every few metres.
 
I'm a dales caver very much so but always enjoyed a ladder climb. If you read the old tales of big ladders, anything over 2 joined 30' would be really big to me, I like the phrase 'a strong pull on the line', I know exactly the benefits of that as you feel like you're flying up, and you arrive at the top to three knackered cavers who've think they've just dragged the whole way
I don't remember the days of serious ladder climbs, I think the biggest I've climbed about is about 20 metres and I'm told the 30m pitch on a ladder is a serious undetaking.

Well, the simple fact is that if you wanted to go caving 'in those days' you really had to climb ladders (or be restricted to relatively few horizontal systems) at least in the Dales, although I guess it wasn't quite the same in the Mendips or South Wales.

So you started on the easy caves . . . Dolly tubs / Sunset / Heron etc. . . . worked your way up – Sell Gill / Ireby / etc . . . and as you got fitter and more adept at climbing ladders so you could do bigger pitches (and more of them).

I'm told the 30m pitch on a ladder is a serious undetaking

. . . well, yes, it certainly would be now for me, but 'back in the day' caves such as Meregill, Stream Passage, Lost Johns on ladders were routine. I guess it's just what you're used to. (Don't get me wrong; when SRT first started to appear in the UK I embraced it wholeheartedly).
 
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Oddly, there was a lot of opposition to SRT when it first started to be adopted in the Dales . . . I really have no idea why.
 
Oddly, there was a lot of opposition to SRT when it first started to be adopted in the Dales . . . I really have no idea why.

I believe it was considered dangerous by Ye Old cavers, at least im my experience. Many years ago after I started caving in the mid 1970s, the club I eventually joined in the mid 1980s was run by older cavers who were largely no longer caving any more, but who continued with the club as a more of a social gathering. We younger members were refused spending money on SRT ropes to replace their ancient hawser laid lifelining rope as "SRT is dangerous". After a particularly lengthy trip down Notts Pot on ladders, the younger members got voted onto the Committee and immediately spent club funds on new SRT rope.
After three of us younger members returned to our tents while camped outside the Old Hill Inn in Chapel le Dale, some of the older members who overheard three of us talking about our trip down Meregill, from where we had just returned, couldn't believe how fast we had bottomed the cave and returned as compared to when they used to do it with ladders!
 
Oddly, there was a lot of opposition to SRT when it first started to be adopted in the Dales . . . I really have no idea why.
A result of the death of David Huxtable in Gaping Gill, December 1974, perhaps? Something to do with polypropylene rope?
Descent (31), May 1975 has a couple of articles:
Britain’s First SRT Fatality
The facts behind David Huxtable’s death in Gaping Gill, with ...
Gaping Ghyll: Why Did the Rope Break?
An analysis of rope types and why some are unsuitable for SRT.
 
A result of the death of David Huxtable in Gaping Gill, December 1974, perhaps? Something to do with polypropylene rope?
Descent (31), May 1975 has a couple of articles:
Britain’s First SRT Fatality
The facts behind David Huxtable’s death in Gaping Gill, with ...
Gaping Ghyll: Why Did the Rope Break?
An analysis of rope types and why some are unsuitable for SRT.

I don't think so - that use of a polypropylene rope was definitely an outlier.

In my view, I have no doubt that the early uses of SRT wasn't that safe. Neither the techniques nor the equipment had been developed. and there wasn't really a go-to to learn from. In 1972 when I started, harnesses were either climbing harnesses or home made; the ascenders were clogs which need to be detached to load onto a rope, and descenders were figures of eight. As we didn't have cowstails, we needed two to meet the challenges of a rebelay. It really could be a scary business.

If I remember rightly, it was Ben Lyon in particular, and Whernside Manor in general (including Fulk) who slowly steered UK cavers in the right direction.

I remember the GG incident. I had been diving in Beck Head Stream Cave that morning, and we were washed out of a flooding system - it was very exciting, wondering whether the passage would be sumped round the next corner. We were met at the entrance by Dick Glover, and were asked to go up and help with the rescue. I had actually met Huxtable at Clapdale (where we were staying) that morning, and discussed with him the suitability of both the rope and the weather.
 
The issue with dropping the name Belay Belt was mainly because of required certification for PPE to be sold as such. One day they ere called Belay Belts and after this change the same belts were still being sold but with a different name like Caving Belt or whatever. I was surprised how much these now cost and would seriously spend the extra and get a harness such as the MTDE Club from https://starlessriver.com/product-category/sit-harnesses-srt/ for example. A price difference of a couple of beer vouchers is worth paying IMHO.
And with impeccable timing we have this thread: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/found-belay-belt.32871/

It's one thing to eradicate a name for sales purposes, quite another to get in changed in everyday talk.
 
Morning Ian Ball, I'm intrigued by your posting:

However, my one experience in Flood Entrance was zero fun as I had to be recovered so I resent that place and have not been back since.

What went wrong?
 
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