PeteHall
Moderator
Top top. When your belt wears out, cut off the buckle and make yourself a new belt from seat belt webbing scavenged from a beakers yard and sewn with a speedy stitcher.
Or look out for a 2nd hand one.
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Black Sheep Diggers presentation - March 29th 7pm
In the Crown Hotel Middlesmoor the Black Sheep Diggers are going to provide an evening presentation to locals and other cavers.
We will be highlighting with slides and explanations the explorations we have been doing over the years and that of cave divers plus research of the fascinating world of nearby lead mines.
Belay belts
- Thread starter mattsccm
- Start date
Or look out for a 2nd hand one.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Fewer.
I apologise for not being able to overcome the instinctive urge to post this. Imagine how awful it is to be me.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
No belt can meet the EN standard for a harness (for obvious reasons).
Arguably a climbing harness (one of the tougher-wearing ones) is a _better_ choice for lifelining than an SRT harness (higher point of attachment, so reduced risk of inversion).
Using belts (or just free-climbing) a ladder and on traverses is still de-rigueur in the Mendips and (to some degree) in South Wales AFAICT. Typical Mendips rig on Swildons when I got there yesterday (ladder on one bolt, lifeline on the other through two chained ancient steel carabiners and, for reasons which still elude me, a pulley). I rigged my own lifeline on a sling from both anchors (which is admittedly not necessarily helpful; probably I should have de-rigged their set up entirely but Swildon's rigging practice is a bit of a nightmare). Unfortunately the pair whose ladder it was overtook us just before we got there, and in a (genuine) attempt to be helpful free-climbed the ladder to try and bring us up quickly but I wasn't quite ready, and then some rope confusion happened where they pulled up our rope etc... then free-climbed back down the ladder, and I had to ask (hopefully not too impolitely) not to do an over-the-shoulders belay (given that my belayer already had the rope in an Italian hitch)... if you are reading this, thanks for trying to be helpful and sorry we weren't very easily helped! I also wanted to rig our ladder onto the stubby stal to get it further away from the water (one day perhaps cave conservation and common sense will prevail and that pitch will get a fixed ladder, but I suspect it will still be a while...).
I was using a single sling for an improvised harness including leg loops (I don't actually own a 'caving' belt, mine is a Black Diamond trouser belt).
Arguably a climbing harness (one of the tougher-wearing ones) is a _better_ choice for lifelining than an SRT harness (higher point of attachment, so reduced risk of inversion).
Using belts (or just free-climbing) a ladder and on traverses is still de-rigueur in the Mendips and (to some degree) in South Wales AFAICT. Typical Mendips rig on Swildons when I got there yesterday (ladder on one bolt, lifeline on the other through two chained ancient steel carabiners and, for reasons which still elude me, a pulley). I rigged my own lifeline on a sling from both anchors (which is admittedly not necessarily helpful; probably I should have de-rigged their set up entirely but Swildon's rigging practice is a bit of a nightmare). Unfortunately the pair whose ladder it was overtook us just before we got there, and in a (genuine) attempt to be helpful free-climbed the ladder to try and bring us up quickly but I wasn't quite ready, and then some rope confusion happened where they pulled up our rope etc... then free-climbed back down the ladder, and I had to ask (hopefully not too impolitely) not to do an over-the-shoulders belay (given that my belayer already had the rope in an Italian hitch)... if you are reading this, thanks for trying to be helpful and sorry we weren't very easily helped! I also wanted to rig our ladder onto the stubby stal to get it further away from the water (one day perhaps cave conservation and common sense will prevail and that pitch will get a fixed ladder, but I suspect it will still be a while...).
I was using a single sling for an improvised harness including leg loops (I don't actually own a 'caving' belt, mine is a Black Diamond trouser belt).
tomferry
Well-known member
The ladder climb at swildons scared me the first time doing it on my belt .
I think the locals make it look so easy it’s annoying! Probably because they do the short round each day before breakfast.
cavetroll
Member
Typically of course caving sit harnesses are not designed to be used alone. Interestingly in this case the diagrams provided do seem to show it used alone, but in the text it actually clearly states (in French, under SECURITE part 1) ):
"This seat harness should not be used alone, combined use of a torso harness is mandatory. This limits the risk of
backward tilt of an unconscious person on a rope."
https://www.mtde.net/wp-content/uploads/notice/CLUBFR.pdf
Maj
Well-known member
I feel that just the thought of a ladder in any Mendip cave would scare the hell out of most Northern Cavers.
Can only be just the thought of it since most won't even sample the delights of caves in the South
cap n chris
Well-known member
Ladders are for lofts.
badger
Active member
Use a petzl gym or similar harness, a no frills climbing harness, then you will not need a chest harness.
I personally now would only belay on an Italian hitch in a emergency, if I am taking ladder and lifeline, I would also pack a belay device. As they say, you should learn from experience. I have, luckily under
controlled conditions.
JAshley73
Active member
When we say "ladder" here, are we talking about cable-ladders, or welded (rigid) ladders?
I guess I'm a bit puzzled by this - ladder AND life line? Sounds like belt & suspenders. If the ladders are really that un-trustworthy & dangerous enough to need a lifeline, why not just yank them, and use SRT instead?
I guess I'm a bit puzzled by this - ladder AND life line? Sounds like belt & suspenders. If the ladders are really that un-trustworthy & dangerous enough to need a lifeline, why not just yank them, and use SRT instead?
Wire ladder, AKA Electron Ladder - one of these:
Lyon Flexible Ladder - Inglesport
Technical Equipment Retailers to the Sport and Professional markets for Caving, Climbing, Rope Access, Work at Height and Rescue since 1977
www.inglesport.com
Electron Ladders can be difficult to climb and aren't classed as PPE - climbing one without a lifeline is seen in many circles as being dangerous. And yes, using SRT instead is much more sensible - ladders are horrid.
alanw
Well-known member
Agreed, with an exception. When we were re-doing the entrance tube to Stream Passage in the Gaping Gill System (https://ukcaving.com/board/index.ph...pot-july-august-2024.31986/page-2#post-396423) one person coming up had great difficulty exiting and needed to be pulled out of the tube. When the anchor for the top of the rope is below the lip of the pitch and there are no footholds, it is very hard work pulling yourself out. A short ladder or etrier makes it a lot easier.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I recently went on a trip in a foreign cave that included more than 70 sections of (typically) aluminium ladder scattered on the route through the cave. I think there was one climb with about 10 of those ladders that must have been at least 30m high or so. Some people may choose to use protection of some sort on such things
Consequently, no SRT was required (although a harness and cowstails was advisable for certain traverses). Doing all that with SRT all the way through, with heavy bags, would be a PITA.
But I will (nearly) always lifeline a wire ladder (where possible) or just free-climb around it is possible. I don't like the uncertainty that it _probably_ won't fail, but they definitely do fail occasionally.
paul
Moderator
For caves with short pitches, especially not far from the entrance SRT with all the personal gear can be a bit of overkill and can also just be a pain in tighter sections, etc. A length of Electron Ladder (10m long) and some rope to use as a lifeline (double the length of the pitch to allow for the last caver down and first caver up to be lifelined from the bottom) with each caver preferably wearing a sit harness and caving belt attached to each other with a large karabiner to which the lifeline is attached can then be used instead. Also it enables novices to pass a short pitch, with prior suitable instruction on using Electron ladders and backed up by lifeline, if they have no SRT experience or gear.
Also of interest:
Also of interest:
I'm a dales caver very much so but always enjoyed a ladder climb. If you read the old tales of big ladders, anything over 2 joined 30' would be really big to me, I like the phrase 'a strong pull on the line', I know exactly the benefits of that as you feel like you're flying up, and you arrive at the top to three knackered cavers who've think they've just dragged the whole way
I don't remember the days of serious ladder climbs, I think the biggest I've climbed about is about 20 metres and I'm told the 30m pitch on a ladder is a serious undetaking.
I don't remember the days of serious ladder climbs, I think the biggest I've climbed about is about 20 metres and I'm told the 30m pitch on a ladder is a serious undetaking.
rm128
Well-known member
You've never done Bar Pot on ladders? Well worth the effort of carrying them up thereI'm a dales caver very much so but always enjoyed a ladder climb. If you read the old tales of big ladders, anything over 2 joined 30' would be really big to me, I like the phrase 'a strong pull on the line', I know exactly the benefits of that as you feel like you're flying up, and you arrive at the top to three knackered cavers who've think they've just dragged the whole way
I don't remember the days of serious ladder climbs, I think the biggest I've climbed about is about 20 metres and I'm told the 30m pitch on a ladder is a serious undetaking.
Not sure I'd fancy it myself these days though.
paul
Moderator
From an old post Juniper Gulf on ladder:
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