breakthough at secret dig

[chris1984]

me and couple of friends have recently been digging in a secret location and have broken out into a rift to the right there is another rift that is to small to get though but you can hear a stream running beyond the rift straight ahead is a tight squeeze and into a very small body sized chamber and below you is a rift that drops about 7 meters and then drops of a ledge into a pool below the sound of the stream can be heard down the rift but at the time had no srt kit to descend the rift we decided to to make a return trip but only to find that where we have been digging it has turned into a duck with limited airspace the water could get syphoned into the rift on the right where we can hear the stream i was wondering due to the heavy rain we had the area where we started digging was dry but now we dug a hole its filled up with water will this drain away in the soil slowly and how much does evaporation take part in cave climates. if anyone is interested in coming for exploration trip that has good knowledge about safely entering new cave passage must be thin as there is quite a tight squeeze into the body sized chamber all i can say that it has something to do with the st dunstan well catchment.

 

[SamT]

wow - how about some punctuation.

quick re-edit....

me and couple of friends have recently been digging in a secret location and have broken out into a rift.

to the right there is another rift that is to small to get though but you can hear a stream running beyond the rift.

straight ahead is a tight squeeze and into a very small body sized chamber and below you is a rift that drops about 7 meters and  drops of a ledge into a pool below.

the sound of the stream can be heard down the rift but at the time had no srt kit to descend. We decided to to make a return trip,  only to find that where we have been digging has turned into a duck with limited airspace.

the water could get syphoned into the rift on the right where we can hear the stream.

the area where we started digging was dry but now we dug a hole its filled up with water, due to the heavy rain we had.

I was wondering, will this drain away in the soil slowly and how much does evaporation take part in cave climates?

if anyone is interested in coming for exploration trip that has good knowledge about safely entering new cave passage then get in touch.
You must be thin as there is quite a tight squeeze into the body sized chamber all i can say that it has something to do with the st dunstan well catchment.

 

[graham]

Tut tut, Sam. Didn't you know that these days grammar, like spelling, is not compulsory?

 

[SamT]

not really having a pop - not all people can touch type etc.

having said that, poor spelling doesn't often detract from the message - lack of punctuation can make things practically unreadable.

Just making it more readable for those who may be intersted in taking up the offer of a free push into new cave. I know if I lived in the area - I'd be on the phone quick smart.

 

[ian.p]

i dont think you get much if any evaporation in caves cos of the 100% humidity and lack of energy from the sun maybe in a realy realy drafty cave????

 

[graham]

i dont think you get much if any evaporation in caves cos of the 100% humidity and lack of energy from the sun maybe in a realy realy drafty cave????

Where there is a draught you can and do get evaporation; a classic example of this is the case of Carlsbad Caverns where, when they put the lift shaft in, to take tourists directly into the Big Room. Immediately after, they realised that many of the speleothems were drying up and so had to install air locks to control the draught.

On the other hand, in out of the way places you will get very little evaporation at all. The BSRS, forerunner to the UBSS installed some evaporation experiments in Mendip Caves in 1913. In 1934 it was noted that one of them "had shown no loss by evaporation".

So, like so many things it all depends ...

 

[Rob]

In classic Dales pots, as long as the cave is drafting in, you'll often see that the closer you get to the entrance the drier the walls seem, even in wet passages where you splashed the walls on your way in.

 

[Aubrey]

There is significant evaporation in Bath Swallet caused by the inwards draught at this time of year.
The walls of the cave can be dry all the way down to the main passage when the draught is strongest. (I expect this will be the case today with the dry cold weather we have).
This drying and draught existed before the Rods/Bath link was opened up for cavers, although we knew a link existed.

The digging team investigated the phenomena and found a dry patch of wall with a draught above the Bear Pit in Rods Pot. Unfortunately it was not practical to dig there.

Warm damp air comes out of the Rods entrance when the draught is going into Bath. This is what you would expect if the Rods entrance was significantly higher than Bath due to warm air rising. The entrances are at the about the same level so can anyone explain why the draught occurs?

 

[graham]

Warm damp air comes out of the Rods entrance when the draught is going into Bath. This is what you would expect if the Rods entrance was significantly higher than Bath due to warm air rising. The entrances are at the about the same level so can anyone explain why the draught occurs?

can't explain it, no, but suspect it means that there is an open link to the surface somewhere lower down.

 

[whitelackington]

Draughts are often tricky blighters.
We have been trying to understand the draughts at our various dig sites @ Charterhouse / Blackmoor
all without any success.
Understanding the draughts that is,
actual digs have had some success.

 

[SamT]

evaporation does occur, and can be significant.

In bagshawe, the namraed sump acts as a seal between two parts of the cave, its takes all year and practically drought conditions for it to drop, the moment the seal breaks - a strong draught develops and the rest of the sump dries up in a flash, - you can see where the mud dries and cracks as the draught passes over.

So - with that little query cleared up .. is anyone going to go and push this open and ongoing lead 

 

[Aubrey]

Sounds too tight for me -although I would like to try.  :doubt:
I could make it bigger for Chris! 

 

[matty007d]

Yep. It's being pushed alright. The cramped nature of the site limits the number of people able to work well there at the moment. Soon enough, when it's opened up, more people will speed things up nicely. Should get some pictures tonight.

 

[footleg]

Warm damp air comes out of the Rods entrance when the draught is going into Bath. This is what you would expect if the Rods entrance was significantly higher than Bath due to warm air rising. The entrances are at the about the same level so can anyone explain why the draught occurs?

can't explain it, no, but suspect it means that there is an open link to the surface somewhere lower down.

My front door letter box draughts in strongly in cold weather, and the catflap in the back door draughts out. There is very little height difference between the two. So there are other factors in play beyond the heights of entrances. (I can stop the draught by closing the inner porch door by the way, before anyone starts going on about carbon footprints and such!)

 

[El Agreb]

Perhaps you have an active streamway you have yet to survey somewhere in the house, I hear that may have an influence on a draught☺

 

[graham]

Dunno about an active streamway, but I'm willing to bet that there are a number of other energy sources within the house that are having an equivalent effect.

 

[footleg]

So maybe there is an energy source in the cave in question too? Like a pit of molten lava or a secret underground military base? Most of the caves I've seen in films and TV series seem to have these, so they must be quite common.

 

[graham]

Well we do know that there were secret underground military bases in caves close by during WW2 so I suppose it is just about possible that there is a modern base in the area that has escaped local notice. I doubt the molten lava theory 'cos the BGS assures me all the local rocks are sedimentary.

 

[whitelackington]

So maybe there is an energy source in the cave in question too? Like a pit of molten lava or a secret underground military base? Most of the caves I've seen in films and TV series seem to have these, so they must be quite common.

Almost certainly bacterial life or bacterial-like life,
in caves uses energy and gives off heat.

 

[Hatstand]

I doubt the molten lava theory 'cos the BGS assures me all the local rocks are sedimentary.

But the BBC (and others) assure me that the rocks in caves are all phosphorescent* and the laws of geology don't apply down caves. 

*either that or they all have lights hidden round all the corners!