Carlswark Dynamite series.

[SamT]

nice one - go for it.

However let me know before anyone widens porth crawl - I'd like a crack at it before just for posterity. Thinking about it - the point I reached sounds like it wasnt porth crawl but the old duck that bubs mentioned.

may have to go down some time and have another look.

 

[danthecavingman]

Andy, you have my attention with Rubble Rift, as I am out that way tonight then maybe I will have a look if you can spill the beans.....

 

[AndyF]

Here is a link to surveys:-

http://www.keyhole.org.uk/digs_rubble.asp

http://www.keyhole.org.uk/digs_hangover.asp

The dig in Rubble is marked as the "Silted Tube Dig". It's a comfortable tube size, sit on yer bum and hack away. needs an extra person to drag trays out and dump the spoil down the pot (which draughted, but was impossible to dig due to liquid goo)

If you haven't been in Hangover Hole, take a look around that too...

 

[danthecavingman]

Sounds to me like there's potential on t'other side of the Dale....

I doubt if anyone else is familiar with this but back in the mid nineties TSG were digging a site under the command of PB. If you come up Stoney Dale and turn sharp left after the bend you end up on a small road leading to Cavendish Mill. About 300 yds or so up the road on the right was a spot where a huge beech tree had come down. The tree was covering an old mine shaft that dropped into choked natural passage below but didn't go anywhere. We were digging there before Dowel Dale Side Pot took over. The last I remember of it was trying to shift the stump to allow better access to the mine shaft. The site is roughly located at OS Ref SK 209756. Still worth another look if I remember correctly.

Dan.

 

[Dave H]

Andy,

I've just read the trip report for Eyam Dale House Cave and it's not very reminicent of what we saw. This shaft was 20' across, with ivy growing down the walls, but I couldn't see any grill or gate. I didn't want to go too near to the edge though, so I don't know how deep it was. It was situated above the shaft entrance of Carlswalk (opposite the sub-station) near the wall seperating the slope from the grassy, level fields. And it was definately owned by the old-people's home.

 

[AndyF]

Hi Dave,

EDHC is definitely lidded as it is in the garden virtullay of the home, and is a "normal" shaft about 6 ft diameter.

I can't think what it is that you saw. There are a couple of shafts up there, Firset Shaft (lidded), Deep Shaft (Lidded with drums), an unnamed Shaft (Covered with concrete fence posts) and an unnamed run-in shaft right next to the wall. I wonder if the latter is what you saw. It is partly covered with corrugated iron, but is not 20' diameter..... It's also a long way from the Old Peoples home.

 

[Mark]

I really think it would be wrong to enlarge Porth Crawl, people dug up there in the seventies and eighties on a regular basis and managed ok, but I guess things move on and if the end justifies the means then fair play.

If you are up round hangover hole and rubble rift dont forget paracetem'ole further down the dale, biggish chambers lots of tight places to insert oneself, there must be a way on

I think Rob and co are playing with Farnsley Lane cave so leave that one alone

There is something big to find on that side of the dale

 

[AndyF]

I really think it would be wrong to enlarge Porth Crawl, people dug up there in the seventies and eighties on a regular basis and managed ok, but I guess things move on and if the end justifies the means then fair play.

It's a fair point. I think making things just "easier" is wrong, but to allow a dig to be pursued beyond is more of a dilema.

Many digs (these?) have had to be abandoned due to difficulty of access or remoteness. One has to look case by case and balance the likelihood of finds with the potential damage.

Most remaining digs these days need shoring, equipment or power tools taking to them. This would be hard in Porth Crawl.

Porth crawl isn't "pretty", but widening it would change the character of the trip.

 

[SamT]

This could be the start of a huge and ugly debate that would deserve a thread of its own - Ive thought about starting it before - but darent. something along the lines -

"Have Hilti and Bosche spelt the end for 'Classic Squeezes' in all future caves - discuss'

or

"Retro capping - good or bad"

 

[danthecavingman]

I'm seriously going to think about the dig in EDHC before I even go anywhere near Porth Crawl. If EDHC is accessible fairly easily then the dig could be a goer. There is almost certainly more than just a connection with Carlswark on the cards having looked at the survey tonight and seen the distance involved.

 

[danthecavingman]

I heard a story tonight that the reason Porth Crawl was named was that someone working in Porth Cawl used to supply the "Porth Cawl Rock" that came in "sticks" that was used to enlarge the said passage to passable size. Any truth or not?
I'm not planning to enlarge it but if it was persuaded anyway.....

 

[Mark]

The passage was enlarged using the said rock. did you look at anything in Stoney last night Dan

 

[bubba]

I always assumed the done thing was to enlarge the passage enough for the largest members of the digging team to get through.

Obviously this may create problems if the diggers are all skinnies, but hey, I've just accepted that to be the case and that there's some places I'll never get to because of my size. Although I sorta wouldn't mind if it happened, wouldn't it be a shame if every awkward bit of passage was enlarged to allow easy access for everyone?

Personally I think a bit of passage that had the treatment so long ago, should be left the way it is now, even if there is a tempting dig beyond.

 

[AndyF]

..If EDHC is accessible fairly easily then the dig could be a goer. There is almost certainly more than just a connection with Carlswark on the cards..

Hi Dan,

I looked at my Stoney Survey last night. It doesn't show Picnic Passage, but extrapolating from the Carlswark Survey in CoD I would estimate that the distance between the dig in EDHC and Picnic Passage is around 30-40m.

EHDC dig, Picnic Passage and Ivy Green Cave all "point" into a big block of limestone with no known cave. All of these are, however, silt filled at their terminations.

CoD says that beyond Porth Crawl are "run-in shafts", raising the possibility of an entrance beyond it... Probably why the miners didn't enlarge it.

 

[danthecavingman]

Went out last night with the intention of having a look at the Dynamite Series going in via the Flowerpot. A short hunt around found the entrance very easily so we got changed and prepared to go down. The barrels in the top of the shaft are fine, not squashed at all but the entrance is snug to say the least! Caver Mark went down, I watched from above. The shaft dropped down three blue barrels and then ended at a collapse where the way on in the floor was full of rocks but a void could be seen. Myself and Mark decided that time spent digging out this entrance would be worth while. In the meantime we sent Rob in through the Gin entrance to see if he could find the other side of the collapse from Falls Chamber. After maybe a dozen largish rocks had been hauled out, the way on was revealed to be through a very squashed barrel. The problem was that between the bottom of the third entrance barrel and the barrel in the floor was 2m of loose hanging material (Two of the walls were solid, two made of choss). Mark was not prepared to go down the barrel not knowing how collapsed it was beyond and fearing that the stuff where he was might run in so he struggled out and we sat at the top waiting to see if Rob might turn up.
After a short while we heard shouting and the glimmer of Robs light appeared through the bottom barrel. He reported that where he was the barrel appeared secure with plenty of solid rock around it but that there was a debris slope leading up to the barrel and some timbering holding some choss in place. We told him the situation on our side and Rob decided that rather than going back out through the Dynamite series he would have a look. So Rob appeared through the squashed barrel which was snug and awkward. He wasn't amused when he saw the hanging stuff but managed to get out without distrubing too much more.
We concluded that what had happened was that the bottom barrel of the four drum shaft had fallen at some time in the past and had then reconsolidated itself where it landed, being backfilled by stuff collapsing from above. The rocks that mself and Mark removed were presumably wedged behind the barrel before it fell.
The Flowerpot is currently dangerous and not a viable way in to Carlswark. There is a substantial risk of the bottom of the shaft running in further. Additionally the barrels were found to be very awkward to get out of!
Andy - how did you dig this entrance originally and how long did it take?
After last nights trip we thought that you could excavate the barrels and shore up the rift temporarily. Stabilise the bottom 6-8 feet then put bigger concrete rings in (which I think we have) and then back fill the excavation to make it all solid again. It would be a worthwhile project as it is a good way in to the far reaches of the cave.

Dan.

 

[AndyF]

Hi

We dug a gert big 'ole to get through, which took two days, then placed the barrels (which were not squashed!), and refilled round. That took just a few hours. To re-excavate and sort it out would not take long, as the surrounding "fill" will still all be loose rocks that should just lift out. I reckon a keen group of three or four could do it in a day. The key thing (which we know now) is that rock fill will settle, and hence the squashing problem. To avoid this, mix lots of wood and planks in with the fill to stabilise it. If this was done, I think the barrels would be ok to re-use instead of concrete rings.

I think this is a worthwhile thing to do, as it provides an interesting through trip as well as helping access the digging potential.

I'd be up for helping, plus could press gang some others, if it was an evening or w/e...

 

[danthecavingman]

Andy,

Sounds good to me, I have interested parties at my end so we could get a team together for sure. The big question would be when....

BTW had the bottom barrel slipped or not?

Dan.

 

[AndyF]

Yes, the bottom barrel has slipped. They were right on top of each other.

I haven't seen the current state, but it may be possible to stabilise things with some mortar/cement, then just deal with the bottom barrel itself.

I work in the week, but can do evenings easily. I might go take a look myself, and have more of an idea how to tackle it.

BTW if you think the barrel is tight, you haven't seen Porth Crawl yet :shock:

 

[Cave_Troll]

Well have you met Dan recently? He's a bit tubby
If i don't see you in the pub tonight Dan, i'm up for helping

 

[SamT]

Cool - possibly the first net driven digging team.

Go UKCavers.