cave trout : how are they disseminated ?

langcliffe

Well-known member
adam said:
From what he says about the Ingleborough Cave trout, that suggests there are trout in Fell Beck. Has anyone seen fish in there?

What a fascinating video - I didn't know it existed. I remember being one of the party that collected that poor fish with Dick Glover. It came from Lake Avernus, if I remember rightly, and we went in there specifically to bring one out. It survived its journey out of the cave, but died a few days later in a Lancaster University biology lab fish tank. I'm glad that it didn't die totally in vain.

We were convinced at the time that it was blind - how wrong can one be.

I have never seen trout in Fell Beck, but CPC and BPC winch meet campers will have had more opportunity.

I'm not convinced by Graham's explanation of how the fish got there. Even if they fall down the shaft into a flooded Main Chamber, they would still have had to negotiate 30 metres of vertical boulders. I can imagine one fish finding a route down East Pot or West Pot, but with Lake Avernus and Lake Pluto supporting a reasonably-sized population and assuming that isn't atypical for the phreas between the Main Chamber and Beck Stream Cave, there would have to be an awful lot of lucky fishes.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
ah147 said:
There's eels in OFD (as well as an otter occasionally).

Shrimp are quite common in sumps...I see them in nearly every one that I dive and I believe they are called "nicaphragrus" or something equally unmemorable.

I think you're thinking of "Niphargus" - but I'd like to bet the animals you've commonly seen in northern sumps are "Gammarus pulex".
 

adam

Member
Yep, if they have eyes - Gammarus, if not - Niphargus or Crangonyx. That is, of the native species. It's probably only a matter of time until we start finding cave-dwelling Dikerogammarus. Then we're all doooomed!  :doubt:

Certainly all the shrimpies I've ever seen in caves have been gammarus. I wouldn't know how common Niphargus are, but I believe some are typically only found in sub human-sized aquifers rather than caves.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Adam - I've been in touch with Graham directly about this; he is hoping to have a look at your information today. (You may have met Graham if you were at the BCRA Malham hydrology project at the same time - I can't remember offhand who was there on that day you came long to help.)
 
I could write a small book about this but will try to stick to a few pertinent points.

Sticking to the Dales for now it seems perfectly obvious that fishes in caves don't get there by swimming upstream.
Neither do they get there as eggs. These are far too delicate and would not survive the journey. Neither, probably, would they obtain sufficient food to grow and mature into the sizes of fish we see. So we look to Occam's razor and suggest that in all probability they either swim downstream, or, as likely or more likely, they are moved d/s against their will in floods. And now we arrive at the crux of the problem, and its most interesting aspect. The fishes in the caves come from populations in the upland becks that drain into the caves. We see them in the caves but they are not in fact of much biological interest (I will mention some aspects that are in a separate post), as they are unwilling strays doomed to starve.

[Interestingly the Ingleborough Cave specimen mention in the video had been feeding but Avernus and Pluto are atypical environments in Yorkshire caves with low current with sediment dropout and lots of Gammarus and stones fly nymphs etc. Also occurs in sumps of course but there are fewer divers than cavers so less often reported. Active Dales vadose streamways are not high in trout food and are too fast.]

The upland beck populations are very significant but, as far as I know, have never been studied. The obvious questions are:

What is their origin (post glacial colonisation but by what mechanism, or placed there as a food supply by man).
How do they maintains their populations against severe and constant downstream losses that cannot be made good with upstream migration?

There is a well known polymorphism in an enzyme, lactate dehydrogenase, which has two forms, Ldh5(100) and Ldh5(90) with the former ancestral to the latter and with the former common in post-glacial times and the latter coming from more recent colonisation from the south. If the first of the two possibillities above then the 100 form should be present in these becks. Of course we don't these days need to rely on enzyme polymorphism as we could just look at any number of DNA markers like mitochondrial COI. But none of this has ever been done and we have no idea.

It would be relatively simple to get to the bottom of this story with some DNA work but I don't have the resources, or the energy, to do it myself.

Graham Proudlove
 

adam

Member
I find what Graham has written above fascinating and I hope someone with the means does the work some day to shed some light on this.

In the meantime, here's a picture of a nice brownie from just downstream of Dr Bannister's taken last December.
 

Attachments

  • Image00001.jpg
    Image00001.jpg
    42.5 KB · Views: 188
Top