Caves of the Peak District
- Thread starter Iain Barker
- Start date
jasonbirder
Member
Whats wrong with "tourist" trips or "sport" trips...its seems perfectly legitimate to visit these places simply to see and enjoy them...not everything has to be about exploration/surveying/preservation/digging...worthy though those objectives are...
On the subject of a MOPD...I'm in...where do I send my Postal Order LOL!
I guess the thing with COPD is that some Mines are in and some mines aren't and there doesn't seem to be an immediately obvious distinction between the two...I always perceived COPD as a guide book rather than a cave registry so the omission of some of the tiny caves in favour of some mines that are valid trips (IE Snake Mine) or look like interesting prospects (IE Hazard Mine) would have got a thumbs up from me...
Peter Burgess
New member
Nothing at all. If you put the emphasis on the word "dispensable" in my statement then I think you should be able to answer your own question.
jasonbirder said:
On the whole the mines included are ones which are commonly visited by cavers. This does change from time to time as cavers are able to get into systems which have previously been closed to them, or which have been extended to allow a more "challenging" trip. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that there are over 8,000 abandoned mines recorded in the Peak District and the vast majority of these are now completely inaccessible.
It is always sensible to include the "tiny caves" because some of them have possibilities for extension but maybe nobody's looked just yet - inclusion in CoPD might just spark someone's interest and lead to new discoveries.
Suggest that you contact John Beck and ask for the next Edition of CoPD to include those mines (or caves) you feel shouldn't have been left out.
Jenny P.
jasonbirder
Member
Hi Jenny! Wasn't intended as a critisism in any way 
I've got my copy and thinks its a tremendous volume!
Its always a balance...if it contained every little thing...that every-one wanted it'd be a multi-volume work and we'd still be waiting for it in 2015 <LOL>
I've got my copy and thinks its a tremendous volume!Its always a balance...if it contained every little thing...that every-one wanted it'd be a multi-volume work and we'd still be waiting for it in 2015 <LOL>
playoutside
Member
Can I ask what literature is available for mines in the Peak District to serve purpose as a guide?
I do find myself drawn to our industrial heritage.
I do find myself drawn to our industrial heritage.
There is loads of info. on mines in all the PDMHS publications, including some extremely detailed descriptions of certain systems in their Bulletins.
There is also detailed information in the 3 DCA Conservation Audits on Masson Hill, Jugholes and Cumberland/Wapping - all 3 publications available from DCA, check out the website.
There is also "The Little Red Book", which is still in print I think. And plenty of other specialist books and reports on specific systems.
However, what there isn't is one single, comprehensive book which covers ALL the mines, both accessible and inaccessible. (Hardly surprising when there are over 8,000 of them.) That's why CoPD has to concentrate on those mines which are generally easily accessible and of interest to sporting cavers as well as systems which are combined mine/natural, as so many are in the Peak District.
It would be great if there was a comprehensive book about all the mines but it would take many years to compile and would probably have to be so large that it would cost a bomb to print and be so expensive that almost no-one would be willing to buy a copy. Sadly, commercial considerations play a large part in what you can publish - as witness all our problems trying to find a publisher for CoPD. No commercial publisher would touch it so we had to do it all ourselves, and that means paying out a lot of money up front and hoping to recoup it from sales.
Jenny P.
There is also detailed information in the 3 DCA Conservation Audits on Masson Hill, Jugholes and Cumberland/Wapping - all 3 publications available from DCA, check out the website.
There is also "The Little Red Book", which is still in print I think. And plenty of other specialist books and reports on specific systems.
However, what there isn't is one single, comprehensive book which covers ALL the mines, both accessible and inaccessible. (Hardly surprising when there are over 8,000 of them.) That's why CoPD has to concentrate on those mines which are generally easily accessible and of interest to sporting cavers as well as systems which are combined mine/natural, as so many are in the Peak District.
It would be great if there was a comprehensive book about all the mines but it would take many years to compile and would probably have to be so large that it would cost a bomb to print and be so expensive that almost no-one would be willing to buy a copy. Sadly, commercial considerations play a large part in what you can publish - as witness all our problems trying to find a publisher for CoPD. No commercial publisher would touch it so we had to do it all ourselves, and that means paying out a lot of money up front and hoping to recoup it from sales.
Jenny P.
jasonbirder
Member
Completely off topic with regards to COPD, but relevent to the talk of information in journals/old books etc etc...
There doesn't seem to be anyway of "recycling" that information...so its accessible to a current readership...given the limited print runs of most publications (an old COPD was tough enough to get hold of and I'd still like all the volumes of Caves of Derbyshire...even after keeping my eyes open for years!) and the fact that there are literally too many and too much of a backlog of old journals for anyone to own a reasonable percentage...
Its pretty tough!
Building a decent Caving Library even for your local area...(let alone nationally) is a TOUGH ask for anyone...
Perhaps something for Descent to consider...ditch some of the foreign stuff and think about recycling interesting but "old" info to a new audience in a new format?
There doesn't seem to be anyway of "recycling" that information...so its accessible to a current readership...given the limited print runs of most publications (an old COPD was tough enough to get hold of and I'd still like all the volumes of Caves of Derbyshire...even after keeping my eyes open for years!) and the fact that there are literally too many and too much of a backlog of old journals for anyone to own a reasonable percentage...
Its pretty tough!
Building a decent Caving Library even for your local area...(let alone nationally) is a TOUGH ask for anyone...
Perhaps something for Descent to consider...ditch some of the foreign stuff and think about recycling interesting but "old" info to a new audience in a new format?
Pitlamp
Well-known member
An interesting concept from Jason: "acceptable to a current readership".
There seems to be a feeling amongst many cavers that information produced some time ago isn't accessible if it's not on the interweb. This just highlights one of the many advantages of joining a decent caving club with a library of journals and books. It's all there - and the pleasures of spending a wet afternoon browsing through a caving library if a trip has been bombed out by the weather should be sampled by more people.
Physical libraries might be considered old fashioned by some but they are just as excellent a resource as ever.
(In Jason's case I suspect I'm preaching to the converted; his club has a good library and I know he has an above average interest in caving publications. The above is really a general observation.)
There seems to be a feeling amongst many cavers that information produced some time ago isn't accessible if it's not on the interweb. This just highlights one of the many advantages of joining a decent caving club with a library of journals and books. It's all there - and the pleasures of spending a wet afternoon browsing through a caving library if a trip has been bombed out by the weather should be sampled by more people.
Physical libraries might be considered old fashioned by some but they are just as excellent a resource as ever.
(In Jason's case I suspect I'm preaching to the converted; his club has a good library and I know he has an above average interest in caving publications. The above is really a general observation.)
SamT
Moderator
I guess an awful lot of folks simply dont have the spare time to sit in caving hut libraries drinking tea and perusing. Its not that often that a trip is bombed out by the weather and if you've travelled all the way up to castleton from Fulham for the weekend, chances are you'd rather go and do a different trip.
And as such, Jason's point is an excellent one.
The answer being for clubs to try and get with the times and scan their jounals etc an put em up on line. (even if its just for their own membership if we are to sustain the current interest in joining clubs and attract new members
) As you know Pitlamp. the Eldon library is a fantastic archive, but not super accessible to all since its stored at Phil Burkes place. (not that phil objects to anyone going there of course :bow: and its a damned site better than previously where it was stored in boxes scattered over about 15 different peoples homes all over derbyshire and south yorkshire. )
However, its def. on the EPC list of things to do to get all the EPC jounals scanned and online. One Day
pwhole
Well-known member
As a relative newcomer to cave/mine research, I've had a huge amount of success finding the information by using a combination of:
Mine Explorer
Adit Now (join both)
Sheffield Local Studies Library/Sheffield Archive
PDMHS library
Also note a large number of past PDMHS bulletins are available online - not all, but plenty to be going on with, and there's some real gems in there: http://www.pdmhs.com/BackIssues.asp
And of course, our friendly, helpful mine historians/researchers, of which we have many in the area. Write to them, introduce yourself, be nice, offer gifts/favours in return, and much will be revealed. I've recently managed to get docs I never though I'd glimpse, never mind read at my leisure..
Mine Explorer
Adit Now (join both)
Sheffield Local Studies Library/Sheffield Archive
PDMHS library
Also note a large number of past PDMHS bulletins are available online - not all, but plenty to be going on with, and there's some real gems in there: http://www.pdmhs.com/BackIssues.asp
And of course, our friendly, helpful mine historians/researchers, of which we have many in the area. Write to them, introduce yourself, be nice, offer gifts/favours in return, and much will be revealed. I've recently managed to get docs I never though I'd glimpse, never mind read at my leisure..
paul
Moderator
SamT said:
That would be the ideal situation (Club libraries all available online), however most cavers will find the "time to sit in caving hut libraries drinking tea and perusing" if they want to. Finding the time and resources to put eveything online would involve a HUGE amount of time and effort - although it would be nice to have!
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Just let me try to explain further. An online resource allows you to find an item quickly and efficiently. It's a tool for a job. A caving library is a place in which you enjoy spending time browsing. You come across loads of other things of interest when looking for something specific. It's a rich experience in it's own right and it's usually time well spent. It's certainly an extremely good way to generate ideas for new caving projects.
Believe me Sam - I'm an extremely busy fella - but I don't begrudge using a proportion of what little free time I have in journal browsing. You're right though; it'd be nice if greater internet access were possible as well.
Out of interest, does your club library have a catalogue of what's in it?
By the way, I'm a champion tea drinker - so a library visit for me is double the pleasure!
Believe me Sam - I'm an extremely busy fella - but I don't begrudge using a proportion of what little free time I have in journal browsing. You're right though; it'd be nice if greater internet access were possible as well.
Out of interest, does your club library have a catalogue of what's in it?
By the way, I'm a champion tea drinker - so a library visit for me is double the pleasure!
jasonbirder
Member
The online PDHMS journal is a great resource...good work fella's...i've found loads of interest on there and use it regularly! Its a fantastic source of trips/prospects etc...
While the Caving Club Library of your (or others!) clubs is a fantastic resource...its often something you refer to when you "know what you're looking for" (does that make sense?)
Sometimes interesting things, ideas, possible trips, places to go you'd never heard of etc etc... come up out of the blue while you're flicking through things/browsing or re-visiting things for the n'th time...which is something you tend to do more with "whats to hand" than with focused research...
I'm sure if I lived next door to my caving club hut...the library would get used regularly...but like has already been said...if I get a pass from "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (not as many as I used to get <LOL>) I tend to want to spend that time underground <LOL> perhaps what's needed is a Caving "Lending Library" rather than a "Reference Library"...
While the Caving Club Library of your (or others!) clubs is a fantastic resource...its often something you refer to when you "know what you're looking for" (does that make sense?)
Sometimes interesting things, ideas, possible trips, places to go you'd never heard of etc etc... come up out of the blue while you're flicking through things/browsing or re-visiting things for the n'th time...which is something you tend to do more with "whats to hand" than with focused research...
I'm sure if I lived next door to my caving club hut...the library would get used regularly...but like has already been said...if I get a pass from "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (not as many as I used to get <LOL>) I tend to want to spend that time underground <LOL> perhaps what's needed is a Caving "Lending Library" rather than a "Reference Library"...