Caves with leader access
- Thread starter Darkstar
- Start date
whitelackington
New member
If this cave, Timber Hole, is less than a hundred metres long,graham said:
and I have been caving for a very long time,
why would it be thought necessary to obtain somebody to show me round.
A few hundred metres away in the same valley is Blackmoor / Stainsby's
a dig I am involved with.
This is double gated, for safety but both padlocks are the standard C.S.C.C. locks.
Any caver can obtain the C.S.C.C. key from one of the Mendip huts and take themselves down this dig site,
there is a vast amount of infrastructure recently installed.
The diggers do not have to be present to accompany any interested caver
so why on such a piddling little site just nearby would the diggers need to accompany a caver?
Peter Burgess
New member
Aubrey said:You are not missing much!
When I looked last year it was flooded at the bottom and is more of a mine then a dig.
Anyone digging there would need lots of chemicals and a lot of time.
Its a grotty little hole. :thumbsdown:
Aubrey
Are you a leader, Aubrey? Why don't you invite Whitelackington for a trip? :tease:
idriswilliams
Member
Hi,
You could add Alderly Edge Mines to that. Access and Leaders from Derbyshire Caving Club although the site is in Cheshire.
Idris Williams
You could add Alderly Edge Mines to that. Access and Leaders from Derbyshire Caving Club although the site is in Cheshire.
Idris Williams
southpembscaver
New member
BenM said:
Is anybody actually going to answer this? Or has nobody answered simply because it is blindingly obvious that the MCG has Upper Flood access in an iron grip which it (for whatever reason) is not willing to give up even in a limited way. That seems very undemocratic, or am I just too young and idealistic to see all the machinations of inter club politics and why they are necessary.
Surely it then follows that when the UBSS dig in GB goes the cave's lock should be changed and access denied to anyone without a UBSS leader, something tells me that won't happen because it's a stupid idea. :-\
ian.p
Active member
i rather suspect (speaking from a position of absouloutly zero knowledge so by all means ignore this but it is a diferent veiw point) that reluctance to hand over acces will be due not only to politics but also from a wish to protect a cave of great buety if youve spent years of your life digging away at somthing and then you find somthing as incredible as UFS i think i would find it dificult to give up acces control to others whom i may not know. worth looking at it from the other side as well...
nowt wrong with being young and idealistic though
nowt wrong with being young and idealistic though
cap n chris
Well-known member
southpembscaver said:Is anybody actually going to answer this? Or has nobody answered simply because it is blindingly obvious that the MCG has Upper Flood access in an iron grip which it (for whatever reason) is not willing to give up even in a limited way. That seems very undemocratic, or am I just too young and idealistic to see all the machinations of inter club politics and why they are necessary.
I think this is a bit harsh; MCG had been digging in UFS for (IIRC) about 32 years, spurred on by their Patriarch, Malcolm Cotter (who sadly died of natural causes in the cave while returning from a digging trip there just weeks before the main breakthrough, thus adding poignancy - putting it mildly! - to the breakthrough); the discovery of the new majority of the cave still has plenty of leads to chase thoroughly so the diggers are understandably cautious about allowing free rein to unsupervised visits. Add to this the long standing access requirement of a leader to accompany groups into the original Upper Flood passages in order to protect the highly vulnerable stalactites in the stream passage beyond Midnight Chamber and it seems like a no-brainer to me that MCG are keeping themselves very much in the controlling seat - which is great for conservation as it defines clear responsibility for the welfare of the cave*, rather than it being more akin to a free-for-all. (This is my vague understanding of some of the history of the discovery and I hope that any inaccuracies will be corrected by someone from the MCG who can provide a more thorough summary of events than I!)
Perhaps it is also very "undemocratic"** of the BEC to conserve St. Cuthbert's Swallet? (sorry to pick on this case as an example, as there are others which could be used but this is probably a better known example of other sites where access is effectively under the control of one organisation).
_______________________________
* People seem to forget... Mendip is only a small area and had no major discoveries for decades, thus making this discovery (and the recent Charterhouse system) SO IMPORTANT to conserve - taping, recording, preserving, organising workable access while ensuring the protection of the cave against the random wanderings of tourist trips is surely important.
Patience may be required: after all, the cave has been there a long time and will still continue to be there. As Graham has alluded elsewhere (or perhaps even in this thread), just be thankful it's not a Chauvet-type discovery!
** It seems an odd assumption that democracy should be invoked over such a topic.
graham
New member
There are two reasons why leadership systems exist; the first is a desire to conserve beautiful cave and the second is a public safety obligation. The latter cases are rather more unusual than the former and i shall ignore them for the present.
The next thing that one must do is to disentangle "leader systems" per se from the wider world of locked caves. There can be many other reasons for the latter, though mainly it is a public safety requirement imposed by landowners.
So, leader systems are mainly in place to protect fragile caves. Do they work, in my opinion an undoubted "yes". Damage still occurs, sure but at a far slower rate than in uncontrolled caves.
As to why each one is politically as it is, one would need to write a potted history of each cave in order to arrive at the current situation and I, for one, shall refuse to criticise any individual or any organisation for their role in any current arrangement. I do believe that some current arrangements are unstable and over time they will evolve into something different, as have others before them, but every cave and every situation is different and what works for say, Dan yr Ogof, will not work for, say, Fairy Cave Quarry.
Before you criticise anybody walk a mile in their shoes. Then fine, 'cos you'll be a mile away and they won't hear your moaning.
But you will have their shoes.
The next thing that one must do is to disentangle "leader systems" per se from the wider world of locked caves. There can be many other reasons for the latter, though mainly it is a public safety requirement imposed by landowners.
So, leader systems are mainly in place to protect fragile caves. Do they work, in my opinion an undoubted "yes". Damage still occurs, sure but at a far slower rate than in uncontrolled caves.
As to why each one is politically as it is, one would need to write a potted history of each cave in order to arrive at the current situation and I, for one, shall refuse to criticise any individual or any organisation for their role in any current arrangement. I do believe that some current arrangements are unstable and over time they will evolve into something different, as have others before them, but every cave and every situation is different and what works for say, Dan yr Ogof, will not work for, say, Fairy Cave Quarry.
Before you criticise anybody walk a mile in their shoes. Then fine, 'cos you'll be a mile away and they won't hear your moaning.
But you will have their shoes.
Peter Burgess
New member
One should also consider the situation from the landowner's perspective (writing in general terms here, not specifically UFS). Consider how cavers' activities may have started for a particular cave. An individual or a club approach a landowner for permission to dig out a swallet, or some other interesting feature. That individual or club gets the permission needed and then goes on to discover a cave. Even if the person or club concerned wanted to open up access for any caver, it might be that the owner, having granted permission to a particular person or club might want activities to be controlled or policed carefully by the same person or club who sought permission in the first place. This is where regional councils can play a part, because if they are the body that the landowner is dealing with, they can represent cavers as a whole (let's not get into the club/non-club caver argument please), and remove the 'privileged club' argument from the scenario. How a regional council might become the body that the owner deals with is going to be down to the person or club that started the work, and obviously down to the agreement of the owner that the regional council is the better body to handle matters in the longer term. Where a club is specifically granted a licence to work on and in a cave, the onus is on that club to control access and trips in a fair and responsible manner.
whitelackington
New member
I wonder why it is necessary to have a leader for Reservoir Hole,
it is such an easy little cave.
it is such an easy little cave.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Short term memory wotsit.
Perhaps, just perhaps, Reservoir Hole is a leader system for conservation purposes. There are plenty of other easy caves which have leaders, such as Pen Park Hole, Shatter Cave, W/L.
Just a thought.
Perhaps, just perhaps, Reservoir Hole is a leader system for conservation purposes. There are plenty of other easy caves which have leaders, such as Pen Park Hole, Shatter Cave, W/L.
Just a thought.
Peter Burgess
New member
In a few cases, route-finding, but otherwise, little I can think of.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Oops, sorry Peter, I edited that sentence out in retrospect as I realised it could result in an off-thread tangent*.
* i.e. business as usual! :-\
* i.e. business as usual! :-\
whitelackington
New member
O.K.cap 'n chris said:
we agree Reservoir Cave is an easy little cave.
What on earth needs that level of protection.
It is not like you have to lay in cold water with delicate straws above your head, is it.
If a cave like that needs protection, then on that basis Carcass Cave, Coral Cave, Manor Farm, G.B., should be protected.
