Caves without pitches with great formations?

[Pitlamp]

I'm not sure you've understood the point Graham; there are many specific examples where gating and bureaucracy are unnecessary. Splattering these examples all over the internet is obviously not very wise though, which is (I suspect) why the original poster's reasonable question has met with a mixed response.

If gating is the best solution to conservation efforts on Mendip then that's fine - I'm happy to leave Mendip access work to Mendip cavers who understand their situation best. However, such methods aren't universally the best everywhere and my experience of Dales cavers generally suggests that such measures are not popular. Bureaucracy is all very well but there are many experienced and careful cavers who aren't comfortable with paperwork and actually find it a bigger obstacle than perhaps you and I realise. Bureaucratic expertise is no reliable measure of a caver's ability to visit a site without causing problems. If bureaucracy is generally perceived to be unnecessary then you'll start finding some cavers will not be co-operative. It's a dangerous tool and it has to be wielded carefully - and only when genuinely necessary - to be truly effective.

So you see Graham, we do have some common ground. 

 

[Bottlebank]

Oh, and one last point, the OP states they are within 2 hours of the Dales, that covers a very large area, including the Peak. I could get to the Dales inside 2 hours. This seems too similar to the recent 'Well decorated Peak caves without pitches' thread on here.

Beware, this could be the same person...

I'm not sure why it should be a problem if it is? It seemed a perfectly reasonable question to me.

For what it's worth I agree with Pitlamp. Gates and bureaucracy are not the answer everywhere, and unnecessary red tape can create problems. Sometimes control and gating is the only answer but in many cases better solutions can be found. Obscurity is certainly one answer. Another that we tend not to use are signs - and perhaps we should think about warning/advice signs more than we do.

Education, like gates, won't solve the problem in every case, but at least discussions like this may highlight the problems of conservation and might lead to a few people thinking a little more carefully about what they are doing.

I think many of us have will have taken beginners underground. When you ask them not to touch the formations most take note, but some don't. Some you can ask several times and most will eventually get it. I find that when you explain that touching them can damage them you get a better response. That's education in practice, it certainly doesn't make them "cretins".

Nowadays people contemplating their first trips underground are much more likely to come across forums like this, so it's important we make sure when they do the see things like this they see common sense not just a bunch of grumpy old men (and women) arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Rhys]

I find it disturbing that we have now recently had 2 threads along the lines of "Well decorated caves without pitches". Both new forum members and I wouldn't give the locations of anything to them. There are plenty of other things to photograph underground.

I would suggest they go along on some club trips so they can be supervised...

Oh, and one last point, the OP states they are within 2 hours of the Dales, that covers a very large area, including the Peak. I could get to the Dales inside 2 hours. This seems too similar to the recent 'Well decorated Peak caves without pitches' thread on here.

Beware, this could be the same person...

Well spotted Mel. Just half scanning the forum, I had assumed that this second thread was in fact the first one to which you refer. Checking the forum logs shows the original posters of both threads as posting from the same IP address, so it would seem quite likely that they are indeed the same person, but that they are trying to hide something. BEWARE!

Rhys

 

[Bottlebank]

I'm still not sure it is something to beware of, after all there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

Maybe the OP would like a chance to clarify things?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Regardless of whether they have a perfectly reasonable explanation, unless you have met the person and sounded them out, it's a bit like Colonel Bloodnok's suggestion to "open your wallet, and say after me 'help yourself'."

 

[Bottlebank]

Well unless we are going to start vetting people before selling them guidebooks and password protect every trip and dig report on the net it seems a little late to worry about that?

 

[topcat]

Well unless we are going to start vetting people before selling them guidebooks and password protect every trip and dig report on the net it seems a little late to worry about that?

Kind of, but it took me some considerable effort and expense to get the guidebooks.  [The SRT rigging guides were easy: in print, in the shops, and of no use to the OP.  Northern Caves took me months to track down and complete the series and cost more than the new books]

I instantly regarded the OP as very suspect and I've been caving for well less than a year. [8 months]

 

[shanma]

.

 

[Bottlebank]

Maybe I'm too trusting - but what is you think the OP is trying to do other than find some easy caves he/she can take a few photos in?

 

[Rhys]

.

Incidentally, "Shanma" is a third user posting from the same IP address as the original poster of this thread and the Peak thread.

 

[topcat]

Maybe I'm too trusting - but what is you think the OP is trying to do other than find some easy caves he/she can take a few photos in?

I thought that was obvious. ......

 

[Peter Burgess]

Maybe I'm too trusting - but what is you think the OP is trying to do other than find some easy caves he/she can take a few photos in?

Well, it looks like he or someone related is following this, so if their intentions are of no concern, why not drop us a friendly line to set the record straight?

 

[TheBitterEnd]

I'm still not sure it is something to beware of, after all there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

Maybe the OP would like a chance to clarify things?

Seems unlikely that someone would register twice to post basically the same question in two separate areas. Rhys does not indicate if the person used a different email address each time.

It did strike me as a bit odd that an "avid cave photographer" wouldn't have some personal contacts in the caving world who could tell him/her where to go for good pictures.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I like looking at other people's cave photos. Can we see some please, Chaser?

 

[Rhys]

Rhys does not indicate if the person used a different email address each time.

Three separate e-mail addresses linked to three separate usernames; all from one IP address.

 

[chaser]

Sorry folks. I'd created another account due to the responses I'd got to a previous post.

Believe it or not, I simply was looking for recommendations for caves to photograph. I would never intentionally damage a cave or its formations, ever. I can assure you I have absolutely no ill intent.

My apologies for causing concern. I'll not post any more, and if anyone can tell me how I'll delete my accounts.

 

[Bottlebank]

Straightforward replies like that can ruin a conspiracy theorists day 

Strikes me you've no need to stop posting or delete your accounts.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

I agree, don't stop posting, like Peter said above, please post some links to your pictures.

Just as an aside, there are many reasons why a number of different users could appear to use the same IP. People posting from work (not that anyone would do such a thing  ) will usually appear as being at a single IP even though there could be many thousands of people in the business.

 

[Peter Burgess]

In the phrase "conspiracy theory" far too much attention is paid to the first word, and never enough to the second.

 

[Pitlamp]

Sorry folks, am just back in from caving, hence not contributing for a few hours.
Chaser - I agree with the other comments immediately above; there's absolutely no need to stop using this forum. As I said higher up, yours was a perfectly reasonable question. But I still think liaising with a club might be your best bet. Good luck with your chosen specialism within caving!