Caves without pitches with great formations?

[Rhys]

It is the fact that it appears my email address is going to be shared with various interested parties labelling me as suspect and recommending prosecution if any damage is done to any of the caves I have mentioned.

Your e-mail address is not available to other forum users; just administrators and moderators. We are not planning to share that information.

 

[graham]

Shanma

Although you feel you have been personally damaged by this, which I doubt to be honest, I do think it has been an interesting debate for a number of reasons.

As you are aware from these threads, there are those who feel that the best way to protect certain delicate areas of caves is to keep them in obscurity. Now, I would ask them how someone in your position might be able to get to see these places.

I have been accused - and doubtless will be again, I don't care my shoulders are broad enough - of being everything from overly bureaucratic to 'controlling' to 'elitist' for advocating controlled access to delicate sites in terms of physical barriers, gates, and using warden/guide/leader systems. In the case of someone such as yourself, that means that you could gain access to such places, accompanied. Is this a better or a worse answer than theirs, which may strike some as being far more elitist than my approach, I wonder?

There are, of course, difficulties with all methods. In the case of the gate that was removed 'before the cement was even dry' I do wonder how the vandals would have been prevented from finding out about that find.

 

[shanma]

It is the fact that it appears my email address is going to be shared with various interested parties labelling me as suspect and recommending prosecution if any damage is done to any of the caves I have mentioned.

Your e-mail address is not available to other forum users; just administrators and moderators. We are not planning to share that information.

mmilner stated in the Elderbush Cave thread that if any damage is done to certain caves, the email addresses will be sent to the National Trust etc and prosecution recommended. So if anyone else goes and damages those caves, I potentially face the blame.

 

[Rhys]

It is the fact that it appears my email address is going to be shared with various interested parties labelling me as suspect and recommending prosecution if any damage is done to any of the caves I have mentioned.

Your e-mail address is not available to other forum users; just administrators and moderators. We are not planning to share that information.

mmilner stated in the Elderbush Cave thread that if any damage is done to certain caves, the email addresses will be sent to the National Trust etc and prosecution recommended. So if anyone else goes and damages those caves, I potentially face the blame.

That may be so, but mmilner does not have your e-mail addresses - not from UKCaving, at least

 

[shanma]

Shanma

Although you feel you have been personally damaged by this, which I doubt to be honest, I do think it has been an interesting debate for a number of reasons.

As you are aware from these threads, there are those who feel that the best way to protect certain delicate areas of caves is to keep them in obscurity. Now, I would ask them how someone in your position might be able to get to see these places.

I have been accused - and doubtless will be again, I don't care my shoulders are broad enough - of being everything from overly bureaucratic to 'controlling' to 'elitist' for advocating controlled access to delicate sites in terms of physical barriers, gates, and using warden/guide/leader systems. In the case of someone such as yourself, that means that you could gain access to such places, accompanied. Is this a better or a worse answer than theirs, which may strike some as being far more elitist than my approach, I wonder?

There are, of course, difficulties with all methods. In the case of the gate that was removed 'before the cement was even dry' I do wonder how the vandals would have been prevented from finding out about that find.

All interesting points. I reiterate again that I realise I was naive in my original postings. And I need to re-emphasise that if I am being accused here, I need to get this sorted. Perhaps I won't be personally damaged by this, but it is quite possible that I will be. I make some money from landscape photography, I can't afford having accusations like this pointed at me.

 

[Rhys]

You were certainly foolish to go registering and posting here under numerous accounts - it was fairly obvious that you were one and the same person. It raises supsicions and makes you look evasive, quite apart from being rather un-gentlemanly.

 

[shanma]

You were certainly foolish to go registering and posting here under numerous accounts - it was fairly obvious that you were one and the same person. It raises supsicions and makes you look evasive, quite apart from being rather un-gentlemanly.

And I now realise that, and I can only apologise again. If there is any chance of me sorting this, then once I have I will leave the forums.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Is any of your work visible on the internet? If so, it might go a long way to demonstrate your innocent intentions to be able to see it. PM me if you like - I for one would like to have a look.

 

[martinm]

Shanma, if you had just posted some pics (as various peeps have suggested) and not created multiple accounts, (apparently trying to hide your identity), then none of this would have happened. I would quite happily take you down Darfar Ridge or Elderbush, but you have to understand the previous vandalism that has occurred so I am obviously wary. Even people who have got the key to the former cave have thrown mud on some of the flowstone in there and guess who's had to clean it off.... Me.

I have your PM now and a link to your photo page, so will have a look at it shortly. (This also posted on the Elderbush thread.)

Oh, as a side note, why cave alone? Wouldn't your photos be better with another caver in them to give them better scale, human interest and perspective?

 

[zomjon]

Shanma, there is no reason to leave the forum at all. I echo Graham in believing this has not really affected you in terms of access to sites. I would recommend coming out into the open a bit and taing up an offer such as my own for a joint trip. I don't know if you have BCA insurance, but I would recommend that, and it doesn't hurt to be a member of a club which would also provide membership of organisations such as DCA. Alternatively, I also know and cave with many people who are not members of a club.

Jon

 

[shanma]

Shanma, if you had just posted some pics (as various peeps have suggested) and not created multiple accounts, (apparently trying to hide your identity), then none of this would have happened. I would quite happily take you down Darfar Ridge or Elderbush, but you have to understand the previous vandalism that has occurred so I am obviously wary. Even people who have got the key to the former cave have thrown mud on some of the flowstone in there and guess who's had to clean it off.... Me.

I have your PM now and a link to your photo page, so will have a look at it shortly. (This also posted on the Elderbush thread.)

Oh, as a side note, why cave alone? Wouldn't your photos be better with another caver in them to give them better scale, human interest and perspective?

Thanks for your reply.

I cave alone because I am a bit of a recluse, and I enjoy testing my own boundaries/comfort zone etc alone. I am the same with climbing and a few other things. In short I find the company of others quite uncomfortable unless I know them very well.

I am supposed to be visiting Dafar Ridge on thursday, I really hope all this isn't going to stop me. In my email to the National Trust I outlined my understanding of the sensitive nature of the cave - respecting taped off areas, not splashing mud on the formations, stepping carefully wherever I go and avoid scraping the ceiling with helmets etc.

 

[martinm]

Shanma (aka James), if you had just posted some pics (as various peeps have suggested) and not created multiple accounts, (apparently trying to hide your identity), then none of this would have happened. I would quite happily take you down Darfar Ridge or Elderbush, but you have to understand the previous vandalism that has occurred so I am obviously wary. Even people who have got the key to the former cave have thrown mud on some of the flowstone in there and guess who's had to clean it off.... Me.

I have your PM now and a link to your photo page, so will have a look at it shortly. (This also posted on the Elderbush thread.)

Oh, as a side note, why cave alone? Wouldn't your photos be better with another caver in them to give them better scale, human interest and perspective?

Thanks for your reply.

I cave alone because I am a bit of a recluse, and I enjoy testing my own boundaries/comfort zone etc alone. I am the same with climbing and a few other things. In short I find the company of others quite uncomfortable unless I know them very well.

I am supposed to be visiting Dafar Ridge on thursday, I really hope all this isn't going to stop me. In my email to the National Trust I outlined my understanding of the sensitive nature of the cave - respecting taped off areas, not splashing mud on the formations, stepping carefully wherever I go and avoid scraping the ceiling with helmets etc.

Good, cos a lot of peeps don't take care, even after signing the log book at the NT office at Ilam! I am an NT volunteer who was specifically asked by them to monitor the condition of the caves on their land. Have you a rope or ladder? You will need one, it's a tricky (for someone inexperienced) 3m climb down into the cave. I could be up there on Thursday if you let me know what time you will be at Wetton Mill. I could do with going round the cave anyway to check on it's condition. Mel.

 

[Alex]

Shamna, please don't take the response you get here to be the view of the majority of cavers, most are far more friendly. All the good ones tend not to be on here. I generally don't post questions on here anymore as that either a end up arguing with people I upsetting them or get lots of unhelpful responses. I just do my own research now, ask around, but I suppose if you don't know many people then that option is difficult.

I do hope you find somewhere nice to photo and a separate question what gear have you got, for lighting etc? Planning to use slave flashes, light painting or simply going to play about and see what happens?

 

[Antwan]

Hi Shanma, I was going to defend you by posting some of your pictures that are publicly available but I could only find the naked ones as I was away on holiday with very sketchy signal!

Personaly Id have no problem PM'ing you suggestions but I think all mine have been covers

 

[RobinGriffiths]

That's my type of holiday..

 

[Badlad]

As a fan of education - a lot of lessons to be learnt from this thread 

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Shamna, please don't take the response you get here to be the view of the majority of cavers, most are far more friendly. All the good ones tend not to be on here. I generally don't post questions on here anymore as that either a end up arguing with people I upsetting them or get lots of unhelpful responses. I just do my own research now, ask around, but I suppose if you don't know many people then that option is difficult.

I do hope you find somewhere nice to photo and a separate question what gear have you got, for lighting etc? Planning to use slave flashes, light painting or simply going to play about and see what happens?

Oh dear now I find that I am not a good caver also an unfriendly argumentative old cove. At the risk of being even more argumentative I would agree with some that the OP has not helped his own cause. Having more than one identity on any forum is considered to be extremely unacceptable and usually leads to trouble of some sort. His stated intention of solo caving has not helped either. Just what sort of cave photography does he have in mind ? Perhaps therein lies a hint to his personality. But life includes all sorts and one must not rush to judgement. I try my utmost to broaden interest in cave photography and would hope the OP finds a happy path along the travails and troubles of the hobby. Being part of the caving community in some way , I am sure, would prove helpful. We cavers might be a bit cynical at times but generally we have the best intentions of furthering our sport and preserving the caves we enjoy so much.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Good grief!

This is one of the nicest, best mannered, genuinely helpful forums on the whole WWW. I've seen people get much more abuse than this over making a simple maths error, or even for asking a simple beginner's question on some forums. If the OP can't put up with a bit of challenge given the very real issues at stake then tough titty.

 

[mrodoc]

I only look in occasionally but this seems to have got out of hand. My comments were clearly not directed at the OP but at the dangers of broadcasting sensitive information on a forum that anybody can read. Years ago the  DSS were very upset about a cave guide that was published on the basis that it would be a 'vandals handbook'.  There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Bottlebank]

Mrodoc, I agree. I was typing this while you posted so I'll say it anyway.

Having more than one identity on any forum is considered to be extremely unacceptable and usually leads to trouble of some sort. His stated intention of solo caving has not helped either.

Why? If your first post earns you a few negative points why not simply register and try again? I'm pretty much a forum novice, and certainly not a solo caver (I cave for fun - and half of that comes from the company), but I can't help feeling there's nothing wrong with being either. It strikes me forum etiquette is pretty much known only to forum experts.

I appreciate the comments that followed were more conciliatory, but give the OP a break. This one's been done to death.

This is one of the nicest, best mannered, genuinely helpful forums on the whole WWW. I've seen people get much more abuse than this over making a simple maths error, or even for asking a simple beginner's question on some forums. If the OP can't put up with a bit of challenge given the very real issues at stake then tough titty.

Lovely. But that says more about the web than it does about caving

I would echo other comments though, join a decent club, I avoided it for most of my twenties after a bad experience with a diving club. Worst move I ever made.

Personally I'd recommend the Earby, we could do with a decent photographer