Caving and confidence
- Thread starter Keris82
- Start date
cavemanmike
Well-known member
Also if you have confidence issues you are less likely to comment on the forum, so it's actually big of Keris82 to open up a discussion about it 
pwhole
Well-known member
And of FionaH to bring up menstrual cycles, which are a major part of women's lives whether caving or not, but could also have additional significant impacts on their caving too - I can't say whether confidence would be affected positively or negatively by this as everyone's different, and I'm a man, but background pain/stress must surely play a part in how some trips are approached. Many guys are often ignorant or ambivalent about the overall effects of menstruation, and many women no doubt have learnt to not bring the subject up due to a perceived lack of interest/sympathy, possibly to the detriment of both sides. Also many men do have some sort of hormonal cycles themselves, though not usually as obvious. However, one thing I really like about caving is that it can break down a lot of societal 'norms' about behaviour, modesty, perception of risk, cleanliness etc., and so there is an inbuilt advantage in our activity for dealing with issues like this maturely and openly, if we want to. We're all in it together at the end of the day.
alastairgott
Well-known member
After taking a fall onto my thigh/backside in Slovenia in 2009, and my mates helping me get out. My friends spotted me falling the couple of meters to the floor off a muddy hand line and had the presence of mind to throw me against the wall to stop me falling further down a hole in the floor.
This knocked my confidence for a few years, and put a gash in my wellies, I remember still caving with the large hole in my wellies for a while. I was still scared of handline climbs and would always wear a harness & cowstails so I could clip into every handline that was going. Over time this dissipated.
But I'll never forget a trip down giants before I decided to get rid of the wellies. We'd taken a while to get there, but I was freezing in the wellies as fresh cold water was washing in all the time. And we got to the comic act cascade in giants and decided that was enough for the day. (Some can get to this part of the cave in 20mins!)
This knocked my confidence for a few years, and put a gash in my wellies, I remember still caving with the large hole in my wellies for a while. I was still scared of handline climbs and would always wear a harness & cowstails so I could clip into every handline that was going. Over time this dissipated.
But I'll never forget a trip down giants before I decided to get rid of the wellies. We'd taken a while to get there, but I was freezing in the wellies as fresh cold water was washing in all the time. And we got to the comic act cascade in giants and decided that was enough for the day. (Some can get to this part of the cave in 20mins!)
PeteHall
Moderator
I expect that most people have lacked confidence at some point or other.
For some people it's heights/ climbs, for some people it's squeezes and for others it's water. I know many very experienced Mendip cavers who have never passed sump 4 in Swildon's for example. With confidence, this is an easy free-dive and opens up a huge amount more cave. It's also an easy line to draw, without admitting to a lack of confidence.
I was wholeheartedly in the scared of water camp until fairly recently (maybe 5 years ago). I gained confidence in Swildon's sump 1. Rather than rushing straight through, I started to stop half way and look around. Simple as it sounds, this really helped me. Regular easy exposure to my fear, took the edge off it. I'm now a fairly confident free-diver and a member of the CDG, but last time I went to Yorkshire, I bottled Pipikin Pot at the first squeeze, having done it without issue dozens of times before...
Admittedly, if you don't live in, or near, a caving area, that regular easy exposure is not going to be easy...
For some people it's heights/ climbs, for some people it's squeezes and for others it's water. I know many very experienced Mendip cavers who have never passed sump 4 in Swildon's for example. With confidence, this is an easy free-dive and opens up a huge amount more cave. It's also an easy line to draw, without admitting to a lack of confidence.
I was wholeheartedly in the scared of water camp until fairly recently (maybe 5 years ago). I gained confidence in Swildon's sump 1. Rather than rushing straight through, I started to stop half way and look around. Simple as it sounds, this really helped me. Regular easy exposure to my fear, took the edge off it. I'm now a fairly confident free-diver and a member of the CDG, but last time I went to Yorkshire, I bottled Pipikin Pot at the first squeeze, having done it without issue dozens of times before...
Admittedly, if you don't live in, or near, a caving area, that regular easy exposure is not going to be easy...
Keris82
Member
Thank you cavemanmike and pwhole for your understanding It is a shame that women's natural cycles are still taboo and we shouldn't feel afraid to talk about it. I find it does really affect my mood and confidence.i don't think my other half really gets it and so isn't very sympathetic when I don't feel comfortable doing something. It can be quite frustrating when I know I've done it before but on that particular day it's a problem.
It is a shame that women's natural cycles are still taboo and we shouldn't feel afraid to talk about it. I find it does really affect my mood and confidence.i don't think my other half really gets it and so isn't very sympathetic when I don't feel comfortable doing something. It can be quite frustrating when I know I've done it before but on that particular day it's a problem.
kay
Well-known member
isn?t that confusing a general lack of self confidence, meaning that you?re unlikely to post here, with a lack of confidence in one specific area of caving, which is unrelated to lack of confidence generally?cavemanmike said:Also if you have confidence issues you are less likely to comment on the forum, so it's actually big of Keris82 to open up a discussion about it
Or are you saying that people who may be generally confident or active on the forum are reluctant to post that fact? Why would that be?
kay
Well-known member
trouble is a) it?s pretty recent that women?s cycles were a reason not to employ women (alongside the whole pregnancy thing), so I feel worried when I hear talk of accommodation in the workplace. Our situation doesn?t feel quite secure enough to be asking for special accommodations. But I know I?m a product of the time I was brought up in, so I?m probably wrongKeris82 said:Thank you cavemanmike and pwhole for your understanding
Maddoghouse
Member
Regarding the free climbing and traverses, one thing we did with my uni club was go to local bouldering wall regularly. Once you've made it to the top of the boulder problem, we'd try to climb back down rather than just jumping it..! Think this not only helped with technique but also got people use to the sensation of "showing gravity who's the boss" if you get my jist
One thing that helped me a lot to gain confidence clambering over often slippery boulders (Ie the entrance of OFD II) was trail running/jogging over uneven ground. Defo helped me learn what I can/can't put my foot. Granted the have been more than a few times where I've fallen on my arse but better to learnt that way above ground rather than below it...
Finally, don't forget to say well done to yourself, and others for that matter, after the tough bits! Caving is not a competive sport and, despite what we may say in the pub afterwards, is a fun way to spend a Sunday! As has been alluded to, what some find hard, others find easy etc so from my experience an acknowledgement and tap on the back goes a long way in a cave!
One thing that helped me a lot to gain confidence clambering over often slippery boulders (Ie the entrance of OFD II) was trail running/jogging over uneven ground. Defo helped me learn what I can/can't put my foot. Granted the have been more than a few times where I've fallen on my arse but better to learnt that way above ground rather than below it...
Finally, don't forget to say well done to yourself, and others for that matter, after the tough bits! Caving is not a competive sport and, despite what we may say in the pub afterwards, is a fun way to spend a Sunday! As has been alluded to, what some find hard, others find easy etc so from my experience an acknowledgement and tap on the back goes a long way in a cave!
ttxela2
Active member
PeteHall said:
Yep, never doing a sump, don't want to, can't make me.... :ras:
Didn't learn to swim until my late teens, apparently during pregnancy my mother had daily nightmares about drowning, this may be an explanation? Happy enough these days in a swimming pool but not putting my head under water, oh no, not never ever!
Had various points in my life when I have made determined attempts to 'get over it' with and without the assistance of well meaning friends. Now comfortably resigned to the fact it is not for me. I'm relatively happy wading in deep water but if I can't stand up and breathe I'm out!
wormster
Active member
I bust my collarbone, a few years ago, on the short round trip in Swildons Hole: falling out of Vicarage Pot, hitting the landing and coming to in the streamway, We managed to self rescue to Barnes loop before deciding I could not go any further (Sump 1 and the double pots were painful to say the least!).
It took 8 weeks for my body to heal and another 6-8 months to get my caving mojo back, the fall made me all too aware of my own frailties, confidence levels etc. It made me a much more careful caver, not afaid to "Hoi" a group trip and bug out when the going gets dogy!
It took 8 weeks for my body to heal and another 6-8 months to get my caving mojo back, the fall made me all too aware of my own frailties, confidence levels etc. It made me a much more careful caver, not afaid to "Hoi" a group trip and bug out when the going gets dogy!
That's pretty much the reason that women weren't employed a long time beforehand (until the world wars intervened & there weren't enough men left to fill vacancies). Unfortunately there still aren't enough jobs to employ everyone who wants to work (but now we are replacing them with computers & automated systems).kay said:
Keris82
Member
Maddoghouse said:Regarding the free climbing and traverses, one thing we did with my uni club was go to local bouldering wall regularly. Once you've made it to the top of the boulder problem, we'd try to climb back down rather than just jumping it..! Think this not only helped with technique but also got people use to the sensation of "showing gravity who's the boss" if you get my jist
One thing that helped me a lot to gain confidence clambering over often slippery boulders (Ie the entrance of OFD II) was trail running/jogging over uneven ground. Defo helped me learn what I can/can't put my foot. Granted the have been more than a few times where I've fallen on my arse but better to learnt that way above ground rather than below it...
Finally, don't forget to say well done to yourself, and others for that matter, after the tough bits! Caving is not a competive sport and, despite what we may say in the pub afterwards, is a fun way to spend a Sunday! As has been alluded to, what some find hard, others find easy etc so from my experience an acknowledgement and tap on the back goes a long way in a cave!
Yes, going to my local climbing wall is the plan when I can get round to it! My other half doesn't believe it will help because "it's not the same" but I would disagree. I'll try anything to help with my confidence issues
JefeBo55
Member
Interesting thread,
My personal fear is totally irrational as it's doing any SRT pitch where I can't touch the wall! Mines like Oxlow I'll do any day of the week but I did Meccano and up the Hillocks engine shaft and I was a total wreck, took approximately an hour of swearing, wailing and crying to get up and ever since any pitch where the wall is out of reach has killed me.
I have often thought I should just drop Titan and face the fear head on but I don't want any witnesses if it all goes south :chair:
My personal fear is totally irrational as it's doing any SRT pitch where I can't touch the wall! Mines like Oxlow I'll do any day of the week but I did Meccano and up the Hillocks engine shaft and I was a total wreck, took approximately an hour of swearing, wailing and crying to get up and ever since any pitch where the wall is out of reach has killed me.
I have often thought I should just drop Titan and face the fear head on but I don't want any witnesses if it all goes south :chair:
pwhole
Well-known member
That's an interesting issue, as we have 'one of those' in our gang too. Speaking as someone who has slid down a wall in freefall, you end up with fingerless gloves, and you still hit the bottom. So I would try and get over that one if you can! Maybe do it with your eyes shut? I know it sounds daft, but it might be the constant sight of it always being out of reach that's the problem. Years ago one of our mates took his twelve year-old son down Titan, and we rigged two ropes so someone could go down alongside him - he did it all with his eyes shut, but he managed it - possibly the youngest-ever. Other people I've gone down with just whooped and yelled all the way to the bottom, like it was a fairground ride, so there's clearly a variety of responses possible! But if you did manage it, no other sites would ever be a problem again.
it's very interesting how people are affected differently by different issues. On short pitches, it doesn't make much difference to me, but on long (especially free-hanging) pitches I feel safer going back up ? after all, to the best of my knowledge, no-one ever prusiked out of control.
When you say, E Mck, you have to be within touching distance of a wall, is this the literal truth, or more a general, 'Not too far away, but it doesn't matter too much if it's only just out of reach'?
When you say, E Mck, you have to be within touching distance of a wall, is this the literal truth, or more a general, 'Not too far away, but it doesn't matter too much if it's only just out of reach'?
