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Caving numbers

CaverA

New member
I would like to know the number of cavers in the UK? I'm assuming that BCA keeps records of this type of thing is the information easy to get hold of? 

And of course I understand that organisations such as Darkplaces will not be included in this census. So how many members make up Darkplaces? Members would indicate club, as in club membership. So maybe I better rephrase the question... How many participants are involved with Darkplaces?

 

kay

Well-known member
No, the information is extremely difficult to get hold of!

Theoretically, you could obtain the membership of every club in the UK. But a great number of cavers do not belong to any club, and there are other cavers who belong to more than one club. And there are people who belong to a club, but don't actually cave any more.

Your definition of 'caver' will also depend on the purpose of your enquiry. For example, if you are looking at the accident statistics for caving, you will also want to include those people who have caved as part of an organised trip but are unlikely ever to go caving more than once or twice
 

CaverA

New member
Hi Kay,

Looking for a nice rounded number, to say that currently within the UK xxxx number of people are (classed as cavers) (involved with caving) (or something else)...delete as approatiate. I've written myself into a corner and think this stat would get me out. It is just a stat in passing, but of course I can't guess at it without some kind of reference.

Did'nt BCA carry out a survey a few years ago requesting information like age, race and freqency of caving trips?

Thanks Sam
 

Glenn

Member
CaverA said:
Hi Kay,

Looking for a nice rounded number, to say that currently within the UK xxxx number of people are (classed as cavers) (involved with caving) (or something else)...delete as approatiate. I've written myself into a corner and think this stat would get me out. It is just a stat in passing, but of course I can't guess at it without some kind of reference.

Did'nt BCA carry out a survey a few years ago requesting information like age, race and freqency of caving trips?

Thanks Sam

Have you tried contacting BCA?

Cheers,

Glenn
 

CaverA

New member
Hi Glenn,

Not yet. Only came up with using this stat today and thought I would ask advice on here first. Advice has been given, who am I looking to contact at BCA regarding this issue?

Thanks

Sam
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
Almost impossible this one.

Darkplaces has a 933 registered members, i prune zero posters and people who dont ever login after creating an account.

What I dont know is how many of the 933 belong to caving clubs or other forums like ukcaving or indeed other forums like www.28dayslater.co.uk - who have people who cave/mine explore.

I think the idea of trying to figure a number is a pointless task. It wont ever be a usable number. It would be totally made up so why bother trying to work it out.
 

Rachel

Active member
You could stand outside caving caffs on Sat and Sun mornings with a clipboard, making a tally chart of how many rough looking bearded people go in the door.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Given that there is no definition of a caver, it's going to be impossible (as DP suggests) to work out a number. Are you going to count someone who goes caving once on a Thursday in March? - are you counting from 1st January to 31st December? Does someone who gets kitted up but refused to enter the cave, in a fit of tears, count? What about tourists walking through a showcave? - is there any difference between them and a group of youngsters being led on a tour of a "wild" cave? If there is a difference, how is it defined? What about club members who went caving back in 1974 but haven't been since? - are they a caver or just a club member?

Can of worms.

e.g. If there's one caver doing 300 trips a year AND 300 people doing one trip per year is that 301 cavers? Does 1 trip = a caver or does someone have to clock up a certain number of trips per year, per month or per week to qualify?
 

Cookie

New member
As at the end of 2007 BCA has 5423 individual members. Approximately 4/5 of the total are active cavers the rest being armchair cavers.

That will give you some idea, but as said above it is not a simple question.
 
H

hOUDINI*

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
Given that there is no definition of a caver,

Chris I think you'll find the correct definition is NUTBAR, capeesh?  :ras:
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Not sure if this helps but I think you'll find that when the big changes were made to the cavers' insurance scheme there was an exercise done to try and establish the size of the UK caver population. Obviously assumptions were made but if you liaise with those who were involved you may go some way to answering your question.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Way back when pre 2000, two exercises were carried out to obtain thougths of cavers by distributing questionnaires and having free mail post back.  These showed a fair percentage of responders who were members of more than one club. Up until 2004 BCRA ran its insurance on the basis of just asking each club how many members it had without requesting the names.  This gave values which I recall topped 10,000, but I am not overly confident about that recollection.  So this means the number includes those who were members of more than one club.  BCRA were able to take this relaxed approach because the individual cost of insurance to them was around ?1 to ?2, so every one was relaxed about paying twice.  Unfortunately when BCRA's insurer stopped covering them, the premium of the cover obtained by BCA was significantly more. (It came at a time when insurance companies suddenly realised they were covering a sizeable amount of higher than thought of risks and so started to charge risk related premiums.)  So BCA had to work on individuals and remove duplication from the list of cavers it was to cover under its insurance policy.  (There were some other very important factors but I won't digress.)  Membership of BCA has climbed since it started in 2004, but I am of the opinion that this is more due to clubs and cavers joining in, rather than new cavers arriving on the scene.  Membership of BCRA did drop at the same time but I think that to not be relevant to the question.

The other reasonably well proven fact is that the number of university caving clubs has dropped.  But as we are only talking of a few tens of clubs in total, I am not sure this makes a lot of difference to overall numbers, though it is thought to have make an impact on the influx of highly active cavers onto the caving scene.  Likewise, the number of clubs around is not overly helpful since although there are some very large clubs (300 plus membership), the bulk of clubs are very small and the figure pre 2004 used to bounce around a lot, I suspect more due to Treasurers deciding not / forgetting to pay subs to NCA.  The numbers of clubs in regional caving councils also varied and grossly exceeded the number in NCA for a range of reasons.  That also has changed with BCA, with virtually all clubs who are members of regional caving council also being members of BCA.  (I can't cite figures as I have just done a Data Protection Act assessment of my information holdings and deleted a whole lot of stuff since I am no longer involved in the finances of BCA.  It would also take a lot of effort to remake the data from that which I think is now held by others.)

I will say I have not looked into potential other sources of numbers like number of people entering some caves; but often the caves which have such data were / are already linked into the BCRA / BCA insurance schemes, so I am not sure they would be of much extra value.  So it is very difficult to get a handle on the ratio of cavers who are members of clubs / BCA to those who are not members. 

Thus although cavers will say there were more around way back when, I believe the numbers lost are probably much smaller than many think.  My guess for what it is worth is that the peak number was around 7,000.  We can say thanks to Cookie, that there are at least 5300 cavers (albeit some are non active) last year and that there must be some others who are not members of BCA. 
 

Glenn

Member
CaverA said:
Hi Glenn,

who am I looking to contact at BCA regarding this issue?

Thanks

Sam

membership@british-caving.org.uk that's the email address for the BCA membership administrator who knows the numbers - me. So to save you emailing me, the figures for BCA membership on 31st December 2007 are:

BCA member clubs: 154
BCA active caving members: 4338
BCA non active members: 1076

Do you mind if I ask you a questions? Are you a member of BCA? I ask as if you are, I'm concerned that you don't know how to contact an organisation you are a member of. If you are not a member, then you can add a "1" to either the active or non active numbers above.


I see others have already added to this thread...

Cheers,

Glenn
 

kay

Well-known member
You can deduct one from that number, since last year I paid my insurance as a DIM, while meanwhile my husband was busily paying it for me through the club. So I paid twice (and am presumably counted twice)

Wouldn't mind so much if it were going to a good cause.

I suppose the moral is that I should talk to my husband a bit more often.
 

martinr

Active member
kay said:
You can deduct one from that number, since last year I paid my insurance as a DIM, while meanwhile my husband was busily paying it for me through the club. So I paid twice (and am presumably counted twice)

Wouldn't mind so much if it were going to a good cause.

I suppose the moral is that I should talk to my husband a bit more often.

That was a DIM thing to do!
 

kay

Well-known member
martinr said:
kay said:
You can deduct one from that number, since last year I paid my insurance as a DIM, while meanwhile my husband was busily paying it for me through the club. So I paid twice (and am presumably counted twice)

Wouldn't mind so much if it were going to a good cause.

I suppose the moral is that I should talk to my husband a bit more often.

That was a DIM thing to do!
:spank:
 

Glenn

Member
kay said:
You can deduct one from that number, since last year I paid my insurance as a DIM, while meanwhile my husband was busily paying it for me through the club. So I paid twice (and am presumably counted twice)

Wouldn't mind so much if it were going to a good cause.

I suppose the moral is that I should talk to my husband a bit more often.

Hi Kay, did I meet you and your husband in a Tewkesbury chinese restaurent on the Friday night of last years Hidden earth? Just wondering..

Glenn
 
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