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central maillon...

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George North

Guest
:!: Only 1/4 of a pint???? :!:

You've been spending far too long in those expensive Newcastle bars tt.

WRT central MR's, I got well pissed off with messing around with spanners and cold fingers between pitches so I filed down the thread on mine a bit, and it's never jammed since. Obviously this is highly dangerous and stupid but personally it's a risk I'm happy to live with.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
One of my D maillons is tight enough to warrant using a spanner (or other suitably sized aid) but that's because it's been used to mess around doing mid rope rescue practice and I think it's been pulled apart slightly, making doing it up difficult. I like the (expensive) alloy ones but for durability's sake use steel.

Is there a warranty for maillons? I doubt it.
 
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Cave Ferret

Guest
Just to set the record straight regarding the strength of Steel central MR's compared to Alloy ones - they are both rated at 25kn across the major axis and 10kn across the minor axis (across the gate). Steel D's are not stronger just because they are heavier and 'feel' stronger!

As long as the threads of alloy D's are kept clean and NOT screwed up when there is grit in them they will last a number of years. I've had mine for 6 years now and it still works perfectly.

Anyhow, why is it people don't have a problem using alloy krabs for rigging, but find it unacceptable to use alloy for their central MR?

Cave Ferret
 
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diggerdog adam

Guest
Just to set the record straight regarding the strength of Steel central MR's compared to Alloy ones - they are both rated at 25kn across the major axis and 10kn across the minor axis (across the gate). Steel D's are not stronger just because they are heavier and 'feel' stronger!

Im with you on that one

Anyhow, why is it people don't have a problem using alloy krabs for rigging

And this one - But just hate it when they jam and need spannering off all the way !

Oh and george north -contrary to what you might of herd please dont oil your cams on your stop ! a smooth ride isn't every thing ! :silly:
 
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George North

Guest
What's wrong with that??

Firstly I get my SRT kit on a bit quicker than everybody else, then I get to go down the pitch a bit quicker too :wink:

In all seriousness though I guess it's just a matter of what your happy with. I know it's not going to fail and I'm happy with that. Others may not be.
 

Fred

Member
Sam T said

Note - some people have been seen to put the mallion below the left hand harness strap - i.e. next to the 'nut' on the D.

So Sam where do you attach the maillon for your hand jammer safety? Above or below the harness loops?
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
personally i
1) don't have a maillion for my safety cord
2) don't have anything on the bottom side of my central Mailion to try and maye sure it dose not undo thje maillion in some freak accident and very unlekly but possible kind of way
 
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Dave H

Guest
You shouldn't have anything on the bottom of your central mallion! If everything is above the webbing then you should be alright to continue even if the mallion unscrews.

FYI I think that I've tried all combinations and permitations of the previously mentioned central mallion shapes and materials. I'm happy with the half round alloy I have at the moment.
I've yet to knacker a mallion doing a mid-rope rescue (I practice about once a year), but I once stretched a mallion just enough trying to get my harness on (after a heavy eating Christmas!) that it would not work again without a spanner. Is this how everyone else stretches theirs? :LOL:
 

Stu

Active member
The possibilty of a safety cord maillon placed on the underside of a central maillon is real. So is the chance of a krab connected to a stop undoing itself. Which is why I always check before I load them. The convenience of a maillon to connect to underside of central maillon with the briefest tenth of a second it takes to check is my reason for this particular set up.
 

SamT

Moderator
right - here it is - the SRT rig according to samt. Its based on personal experience and much reading. This is, in my humble opinion, how I belive it SHOULD be and should be TAUGHT (along with the reasons), for every new caver.

Mallion - Mild Steel or Alloy D . Not stainless. not delta.
Reasons - Stainless is a hard metal and it is hard to do up tight without a spanner i.e it doenst 'bite' at the end of its thread without using a spanner. for that reason it might be easier for it to come undone when you dont want it to.
Deltas are awkward and can be uncomfortable when you have various bits of kit loaded - during changeovers etc.

Cows tails - one long, one short, Good wide gated snap krabs tied on using a blood knot. Not fig eights. not screw gates. Attached to you Central D using a fig eight with no mallion. Can be slightly modified, for technical rigging, aid climbing and rescue. (eg a third longer tail and the short one very short).

Reasons - Screwgates on cows tails are a pain in the arse, can add a lot of time onto an SRT heavy trip with people fannying around doing and undoing the gates (Ive had to wait behind plenty of em). not fig eights since a blood knot - if suffiently tight and taped is plenty strong and holds the krab neatly the right way round.
Simply no need for a mallion to attach them to your d - just a superflous bit of kit on an already crouded D

Hand jammer attached via single length of *static* 8 or 9 mm forming both footloop and safety cord. not a sling or webbing or one of those petzl things with loads of buckles.
Reason - That rope may become essential in a rescue or emergency situation. There is virtually nothing you cant do with it. Bar blow up boulders or stem rising water. Having a Two piece sling and webbing type setup seriously reduces your options - especially when it comes to getting people off ropes or hauling.

Starting at footloop end - should be tied with a 'yosemite' bowline
Reason - easy to undo if the rope is needed during a rescue. bowline knot holds the loop slightly open (unlike fig eight) for ease of getting your foot in . 'Yosemite' bit (i.e feeding the end back through so it lies next to the standing part of the rope) just clears up the tail allowing it to be taped neatly. and for what its worth adds 5% to the strength of the knot.

Attached to the jammer using a oval screwgate and bowline on the bight
Reasons - Bowline is easy to untie in the event of emergencies. Also the extra rope involved in the knot may come in handy in emergencies. Oval krab seats neatly and is easy to clip things to (technical rigging - rescues) and is also easy to undo if needs be (unlike mallions which Ive commonly seen used).

Attached to D using a 7 mm standard mallion on the top side of the D (above the webbing to answer Freds question) on the left of the cowtails.
Now I use a fig eight (which thinking about it - contradicts my ease of undoing reasons - might have to re think that one - see below.)

Reasons - mallion can be used as a spanner for your D if necessary. It also allows the rope and jammer to be competley removed from your D - without undoing your D if needs be, which you cant if you have a knot straight into your D, without undoing the knot or the D! and a screwgate is too cumbersome there (and cant be used as a spanner either)
Above webbing for two reasons - The mallion can act as a spanner whilst prussiking and undo your D - unlikely but it did ACTUALLY happen to me, the other is that if you load your jammer - traverses - technical rigging - aid climbing etc. the D is loaded nicely and doesnt twist round annoyingly. On the left of the cows tails since it generally isnt loaded as often as them. As for fig 8 verses bowline - the way I see it, if your using that bit of a rope in an emergency the chances are you'll need a fig 8 in one end to attach it to sommat anyhows.

Croll at top of D, Held with tape chest strap.
Reasons - Very subjective this one. Not bungee which although works well will not hold you vertical if you knocked unconsious. For me not a bra type (leather or not) since they are not adjustable - just on or off - and when off - i.e. not clipped to your croll, the croll falls forward, which if your having to cave between pitches, will snag and get in the way in any tight bits.
Tape is adjustable on the fly and will hold you up if unconsious (and not too faffy to put on and off once you get used to it).

And thats it, from left to right - jammer mallion - cows tails - (stop) - Croll (braking krab).

Now - I know everyone always chants the "personal preference so long as its safe" mantra. But all I ask is that you think about every component of your rig and ask youself some questions - what does it do, why do I need it , is it efficient, will it help or hinder me or someone else in an accident/ rescue.
And you need to come up with answers - "Cause I just prefer it that way" is not an answer.

Now then - Im sure I'll come in for some flak over this one. Im not qualified in SRT or ought like that, but Ive just applied what I see as common sence to my rig.
Feel free to comment (would like to hear what some of the qualified guys and gals out there think).
Im all ears.
I also know Im not infallable and many a cock sure caver has ended up at the bottom of a pitch the quick way so I hope I dont come across in an arrogant way.
So waddya reckon then.
 

Stu

Active member
What do I think?

That you've thought a lot about it... which is sound policy.

Two things:

1 I use screwgates on cowstail because a) in the rescue situation that your logic makes you use a maillon on your D maillon the crab can be clipped and shut when it's the only thing I'm hanging on. I don't screw them generally but it gives me somewhere to go if/when needed. b) Extensive aiding against rockwalls will eventually mean that a snap link will at some point open, even when clipped gate out. I know, it's happened to me!


2 The under or on top debate re: safety cord (which is attached to 7mm maillon) is the one area which will not ever resolve itself conclusively IMHO.

The nature of set up you describe is "standard" (loose use of term) for most people...unless you know anyone whose attended a Dave Edwards course!!!


Re: safety maillon undoing D maillon...maybe there is a market for a sleeve similiar to that found on Troll screwgates ie round apart from the hex for a spanner (and if they start selling them next week I'm claiming rights!!). For extensive aid using safety cord as a cows tail there is an option for those who set the 7mm maillon on the bottom side!! Can you tell what it is yet............? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
 

mudmonkey

New member
Great list SamT!

Two comments

Safety cord - dynamic rope reduces shockloads should you ever fall onto it. I have a separate footloop - probably not the best - perhaps with a single length of rope the bounce in the dynamic would be inefficient, but then it's only 1m of rope?

Also - I have a krab on my safety cord, attached to the knot at the jammer. This is really handy for rebelays, and for times that it's better to have two long cowstails.

Not sure about attaching the jammer to the safety loop with a krab - surely you can unthread the rope once you've untied it, and you only need to undo it very rarely?
 

pisshead

New member
mudmonkey said:
Also - I have a krab on my safety cord, attached to the knot at the jammer. This is really handy for rebelays, and for times that it's better to have two long cowstails.
yeah. me too - gets me out of many sticky situations :)
 

SamT

Moderator
So your rig has a two piece footloop/safety leash based on the fact that a fall onto your jammer may be made less painful by having dynamic cord on your safety leash.
In my opinion - the difference in "give" between 60cm of Dynamic and 60 cm of static is negligable. added to the fact that your jammer will be clipped into some rope - which again is will be slightly dynamic.
All this means essentially - it dont matter if you have dynamic or static on your safety leash. In the unlikely event of a fall onto your jammer leash, if the fall is somehow of sufficient force to do some damage - 60cm of dynamic leash aint going to make much difference.
Remember this is all weighed up against NOT having 3 or 4 meters of very useful emergency rope incorperated into your rig.

How are you going to get some fat knacker - or a slim lad with a very heavy bag off the rope on a mid rope rescue or get the tight rope onto your inverted stop inorder to start hauling someone without your spare 3 meters of rope. The possibilities for its use are endless.

So your choice comes down to this.
A : Have 3/4 meters of static rope which is standard kit for self rescues.
or
B : minimize damage to yourself or the rope sheath in the event of a very high factor fall onto your jammer leash by replacing the sixty cm of static with 60 cm of dynmic cord.

You just got to ask yourself, which is more likely, and which will have the worst consequence if tested.
 

SamT

Moderator
pisshead said:
mudmonkey said:
Also - I have a krab on my safety cord, attached to the knot at the jammer. This is really handy for rebelays, and for times that it's better to have two long cowstails.
yeah. me too - gets me out of many sticky situations :)

Not sure what you mean. How is your leash/footloop connected to your jammer.

Why would you need anything other than your two cows tails for rebelays. Whats the problem.

Why would you end up in a sticky situation and how would having an extra krab on the end of your jammer leash help.

(besides - I have one anyway - its an oval screwgate and it attaches my jammer to my leash!!)

:?
 

mudmonkey

New member
(1) I think I probably SHOULD change for a single length of rope for the reasons you outline Sam - just haven't done so.

At the mo., I use a small maillon to connect mysafety cord and footloop to the jammer. Think I'll stick with that, can't see any disadvantages to it.

(2) There is a knot where the jammer and safety loop/footloop connect to the jammer. Into that knot I clip a krab. For rebelays - esp. hanging ones - it's handy as it means you can just clip that krab into the bolt/knot and stand up on the footloop. For traverses where the line is rigged high relative to the ledges, it can also make life easier having 2 long cowstails. Also handy to be able to stand in the footloop on hanging traverses.

(3) Static/dynamic rope - shock-loads are mostly about fall-factors not fall distances (hence putting in lots of runners near the start of a pitch when climbing).

However this does need to be weighed against the disadvatage of prussiking with a boingy footloop, the shorter life of dynamic rope, or the disadvantage of having a totally separate footloop.
 
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Cave Ferret

Guest
Why is it that the majority of cavers cannot grasp the principle of fall factors. It does not matter how long the length of rope is that you have fallen on. It could be 100m or 1m, what is important is the DISTANCE of the fall in relationship to the length of the rope that determines the fall factor. Falling 1m onto a 1m length of rope is the same as falling 100m onto 100m of rope! Saying you cannot have a high fall factor on a short length of rope is a nonesense.

Cave Ferret
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
i like having snaps on my cowstails. these are attached using fig eights.
i like being able to remove my cowstail's crabs if needed or sometimes add another crab with a shunt or another jammer onto my long cowstail. you can't do that with a blood knot,
I connect my hand jammer to my footloop/safety via a 7mm long maillion.
i then have another crab clipped into the fig8 knot that forms the apex of the footloop/safety cord. If you use a crab to link , i think its too tempting to use _that_ as the third cowstail. thus opening up the possibility of dropping your hand jammer. (unlikely but possible)
cowstails and safety cord attach to central maiilion via fig eight knots.


on the subject of the difference between static and dynamic rope. I was once told by a CIC that as soon as you cut dynamic rope its no longer dynamic.
by this reasoning, if i'm belaying someone using my climbing rope and someone cuts 1m off the tail thats coiled on the floor, my leader will die when he falls off coz he's now effectivley on a static rope!
 
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