Cheddar - Charterhouse on Mendip Main trunk Routes

[whitelackington]

It is my theory that there will prove to be three Charterhouse on Mendip / Cheddar main trunk routes.

a) The one most people belive in,  Blackmoor, Waterwheel, Grebe, Manor, Longwood, Rhino, Charterhouse & G.B. Cavern, Bone Hole, Reservoir Hole, all coming out at Gough's.

b) Tor, Attborough Swallet, Wigmore Swallet, Bowery Corner Swallet, mostly coming out via a different trunk route also at Gough's, but some of it may leak elsewhere for example Rodney Stoke Rising.

c)  Pintree Pot, Ubley Warren Swallet/Nettle, Cow Hole, Upper Flood Swallet and anything draining into The Rakes, this will prove to be a third and independant main trunk route but coming out where, Perhaps Rodney Stoke, perhaps Axbridge or probably Gough's.

 

[andymorgan]

I think one trunk route, with 3 branches, in the way you describe them! (Maybe joining around Nods pot  )

I would put UF with the first group though.

 

[whitelackington]

I think one trunk route, with 3 branches, in the way you describe them! (Maybe joining around Nods pot  )

I would put UF with the first group though.

Andy are u actually going to get The cheddar to dig out Nod's (Tar Barrels) then, it would be jolly exciting, you'd probably have to get Tusker & Hughie in on it though.
See if they can't drain Templeton, you might talk them into it and Tusker is yer man for talking landowners into letting him have a go

 

[Andy Sparrow]

It is my theory that there will prove to be three Charterhouse on Mendip / Cheddar main trunk routes.

a) The one most people belive in,  Blackmoor, Waterwheel, Grebe, Manor, Longwood, Rhino, Charterhouse & G.B. Cavern, Bone Hole, Reservoir Hole, all coming out at Gough's.

b) Tor, Attborough Swallet, Wigmore Swallet, Bowery Corner Swallet, mostly coming out via a different trunk route also at Gough's, but some of it may leak elsewhere for example Rodney Stoke Rising.

c)  Pintree Pot, Ubley Warren Swallet/Nettle, Cow Hole, Upper Flood Swallet and anything draining into The Rakes, this will prove to be a third and independant main trunk route but coming out where, Perhaps Rodney Stoke, perhaps Axbridge or probably Gough's.

This is all wild speculation!  Nobody knows, or can know, what the pattern of conduits will be.  What is the logical reasoning behind the 'theory'?  Why would your imaginary conduit from UP pass under the Gough's system to resurge elsewhere?  Surely both UP and Pinetree Pot have been traced to Cheddar? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think much of the 'theory' is based on wishful thinking. I wonder what the first people to enter the Gorge in G.B. thought when they first saw it? And how disappointed were they when they reached the bottom? Even though they had discovered the largest chamber in the U.K.?

 

[cucc Paul]

How about Swildons to Wooky then wasnt this looked at lots...

 

[andymorgan]

Nope this is all about Cheddar!

Surely WL post was to debate these 'theories' anyway. We wont know until they are entered.

 

[JB]

It is my theory that there will prove to be three Charterhouse on Mendip / Cheddar main trunk routes.

Excuse my ignorance but what is a 'Charterhouse'? I know that it's the name of a cave on Mendip but why might there prove to be three of them?

Ta,
Jules

 

[Peter Burgess]

Like with money, so it is with knowledge. You need to speculate to accumulate sometimes.

Also like with money, you should look at established knowledge, in order to best predict what else might turn out to be fact.

If the course of caves is largely determined by the structure of the geology, then a good bet for looking at how the Charterhouse/Cheddar gap (and others) might be bridged would be to look at the faulting, folding, and similar geological features in the intervening distance.

For example, a significant fault might determine the direction and position of any significant cave passage. Has the limestone undergone any significant flexures in the area? Does the gorge follow any important geological feature? Might any cave under the gorge (higher up the gorge) also be controlled by such a feature? I have no answers, but that's where I would start to look if I had access to the data.

 

[andymorgan]

Hi JB,
    Charterhouse as well as the cave is also an area on Mendip that contains G.B., Tynnings Barrow Swallet, Maqnor Farm Swallet, Upper Flood, and Waterwheel Swallet, plus a few others.

    WL got the titel of the thread a bit wrong as the other caves are not Charterhouse caves and the thread should be  Cheddar and feeders trunck routes or something similar

 

[Les W]

    WL got the title of the thread a bit wrong

What  Whitelackington got it wrong  surely not 

 

[Andy Sparrow]

For example, a significant fault might determine the direction and position of any significant cave passage. Has the limestone undergone any significant flexures in the area? Does the gorge follow any important geological feature? Might any cave under the gorge (higher up the gorge) also be controlled by such a feature? I have no answers, but that's where I would start to look if I had access to the data.

After many years of making my own speculative predictions about cave development I came to a conclusion - discovered cave reveals the geology that has influenced it but geology does not accurately predict what caves will do.  The reason is simple - we don't actually have the detailed knowledge of the geology until the cave reveals it to us.

However, there is one trend in cave development so recurring that we possibly can use it to make a prediction about the Cheddar system and that is the dominance of strike alignment.  Gough's cave is typically strike aligned and heads due east.  If you extend this trend the cave would follow a line (actually the 54 grid line) towards Wigmore.  The fossil cave of Gough's is on this alignment but the river cave does a turn northwards in sump 1B.  The divers tell me that this is a complex area where an eastward continuation may be lurking.  If such a continuation exists then then sump 2 and 3 are conducting only the flow of feeders to the north - the Charterhouse area. 

 

[JB]

Andy, thanks for that. I was reading the thread totally differently. It was the 'Charterhouse-on-Mendip' bit that I'd missed. Jules.

 

[whitelackington]

It is my theory that there will prove to be three Charterhouse on Mendip / Cheddar main trunk routes.

a) The one most people belive in,  Blackmoor, Waterwheel, Grebe, Manor, Longwood, Rhino, Charterhouse & G.B. Cavern, Bone Hole, Reservoir Hole, all coming out at Gough's.

b) Tor, Attborough Swallet, Wigmore Swallet, Bowery Corner Swallet, mostly coming out via a different trunk route also at Gough's, but some of it may leak elsewhere for example Rodney Stoke Rising.

c)  Pintree Pot, Ubley Warren Swallet/Nettle, Cow Hole, Upper Flood Swallet and anything draining into The Rakes, this will prove to be a third and independant main trunk route but coming out where, Perhaps Rodney Stoke, perhaps Axbridge or probably Gough's.

This is all wild speculation!  Nobody knows, or can know, what the pattern of conduits will be.  What is the logical reasoning behind the 'theory'?  Why would your imaginary conduit from UP pass under the Gough's system to resurge elsewhere?  Surely both UP and Pinetree Pot have been traced to Cheddar?   

Of course it is all Wild Speculation Andy.
When u say UP are u meaning Upper Flood Swallet?
If u do, then No, it has never been traced anywhere ever, contary to poular belief.
Also it has an incredibly minute stream for such a monster passage.

 

[truescrumpy]

It is my theory that there will prove to be three Charterhouse on Mendip / Cheddar main trunk routes.

a) The one most people belive in,  Blackmoor, Waterwheel, Grebe, Manor, Longwood, Rhino, Charterhouse & G.B. Cavern, Bone Hole, Reservoir Hole, all coming out at Gough's.

b) Tor, Attborough Swallet, Wigmore Swallet, Bowery Corner Swallet, mostly coming out via a different trunk route also at Gough's, but some of it may leak elsewhere for example Rodney Stoke Rising.

c)  Pintree Pot, Ubley Warren Swallet/Nettle, Cow Hole, Upper Flood Swallet and anything draining into The Rakes, this will prove to be a third and independant main trunk route but coming out where, Perhaps Rodney Stoke, perhaps Axbridge or probably Gough's.

I like your idea to this theory, as in honesty all, it does make sense.  8)

 

[Andy Sparrow]

It is my theory that there will prove to be three Charterhouse on Mendip / Cheddar main trunk routes.

a) The one most people belive in,  Blackmoor, Waterwheel, Grebe, Manor, Longwood, Rhino, Charterhouse & G.B. Cavern, Bone Hole, Reservoir Hole, all coming out at Gough's.

b) Tor, Attborough Swallet, Wigmore Swallet, Bowery Corner Swallet, mostly coming out via a different trunk route also at Gough's, but some of it may leak elsewhere for example Rodney Stoke Rising.

c)  Pintree Pot, Ubley Warren Swallet/Nettle, Cow Hole, Upper Flood Swallet and anything draining into The Rakes, this will prove to be a third and independant main trunk route but coming out where, Perhaps Rodney Stoke, perhaps Axbridge or probably Gough's.

I like your idea to this theory, as in honesty all, it does make sense.  8)

Why?  Maybe you can explain why it makes sense?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

It is my theory that there will prove to be three Charterhouse on Mendip / Cheddar main trunk routes.

a) The one most people belive in,  Blackmoor, Waterwheel, Grebe, Manor, Longwood, Rhino, Charterhouse & G.B. Cavern, Bone Hole, Reservoir Hole, all coming out at Gough's.

b) Tor, Attborough Swallet, Wigmore Swallet, Bowery Corner Swallet, mostly coming out via a different trunk route also at Gough's, but some of it may leak elsewhere for example Rodney Stoke Rising.

c)  Pintree Pot, Ubley Warren Swallet/Nettle, Cow Hole, Upper Flood Swallet and anything draining into The Rakes, this will prove to be a third and independant main trunk route but coming out where, Perhaps Rodney Stoke, perhaps Axbridge or probably Gough's.

This is all wild speculation!  Nobody knows, or can know, what the pattern of conduits will be.  What is the logical reasoning behind the 'theory'?  Why would your imaginary conduit from UP pass under the Gough's system to resurge elsewhere?  Surely both UP and Pinetree Pot have been traced to Cheddar? 

Of course it is all Wild Speculation Andy.
When u say UP are u meaning Upper Flood Swallet?
If u do, then No, it has never been traced anywhere ever, contary to poular belief.
Also it has an incredibly minute stream for such a monster passage.

Yes, sorry, I meant to type UF.  It may or may not be the case that UF has not been traced to Cheddar but the suggestion that it somehow magically escapes from the midst of the Cheddar catchment to resurge elsewhere seems ludicrous to me.  Please explain to me the evidence that supports this theory.

 

[whitelackington]

Well, one reason is that it has never been stream tested.
The stream was not found or entered till 1985.

Everyone, just assumed that, like Blackmoor Swallet, which had apparently a hundred years earlier, poluted the stream in Cheddar, that this new cave, eventually named Upper Flood Swallet, would just be part of Blackmoor Swallet,
I think this is what Malcolm Cotter thought.

Apparently, Stainsby's Shaft underlies the present shaft of Blackmoor Swallet, by moor than 100 metres.

Surely whatever the history of this place and it is certainly more than two thousand years, ie Pre-Roman.

The Romans did not invade England, then virtually, instantly, discover Lead in Mendip,
Then start an industrial lead/silver mining community at Charterhouse build a road west to Uphill, build a port to export lead ingots to Rome.
They obviously knew from scouts, prior to capturing Britain that this lead/silver mining was going on in Mendip.
Remember it was 100 years before their first recorded visit, to the final conquest.
So it is a hurculean task to seperate out all the thousands of years of man's activities here from the natural water courses.
Also, on a flood event Velvet Bottom takes copious surface water.
Upper Flood Swallet is an incredibly shallow cave, even the new bit.
This is completey unlike all the other charterhouse caves.
This and the fact it has such a minute stream for such a monster passage makes it trully unique.

The very deep stainsby's shaft, could well have captured what should have been Upper flood water and re-diverted it to Cheddar.

What I am suggesting, is that Upper Flood Swallet is so huge and linear and extreemly shallow, that it may not even go to cheddar.
But of course, I expect it does.
A modern Stream testing set of well thought out experiments should be devized, well out of my ability.
Further downward exploration of UFS will givee us egerly awaited clues as to the present and perhaps past hydrology.

 

[Peter Burgess]

How many examples of cave exploration on Mendip are there, where knowing its hydrology has influenced its exploration and extension? Surely caves are extended wherever diggers find the new bits. Caves be where you find 'em, and knowing the hydrology is interesting, but not particularly relevant when shovelling gravel and mud out of a blocked passage, or just following the stream to see where it goes. If I was presented with a cave passage with possible extensions, I wouldn't be asking "Which way is Cheddar?" I would be looking for holes, draughts, and where any water is sinking/emerging.

 

[andymorgan]

Isn't Stainsby's shaft only 200 years old at the most, not pre-Roman!