Clubs: Past, Present of Future?

[Mark Wright]

Following my first introduction to caving through my school and local scout group,  I found joining a club to be not so easy. My dad took me to Caving Supplies for my 15th birthday and bought me a Youle cap lamp. Due to my age Phil Brown told me I would have to wait a good few years until I was old enough (18) to join any of the clubs he knew.

As a young and eager caver I was devastated. Luckily my dad, who worked in the Mech. Eng. department of Sheffield University, met Paul Mackrill, a student at the time, and told him of my plight. The following September I was a member of SUSS and the following year on their Expedition to Austria. Had it not been for clubs (in the case SUSS) I would probably have swung towards climbing which is less club oriented and is more like a bunch of mates going up to the dales in a car as previously mentioned. It later transpired that I could have joined any of the local clubs at the age of 15, all that was needed was a signature on a form from my parents. Things may be different now. 

Since the early 1980's there has been a natural progression from SUSS, once members had finished their respective courses, to the TSG and I was no exception, although I wasn't actually a student. I felt there was a real sense of camaraderie within the TSG and its members seemed very proud to be members. Members of the Orpheus and the Eldon were similarly proud of their respective clubs.

In Derbyshire during the 1980's there was a very active CDG and this helped to bring the different clubs together, both underground and socially. I remember there being a lot more club events (piss ups) in those days and usually all the Derbyshire clubs would support each others fundraising.

It has been inferred that we should be looking at balancing the scales of club membership in favour of what we can get out of it whereas one of the reasons my 'Mother Club' the TSG has been so successful as a club is down to what its members put in. Some will contribute a lot and others very little, it has always been the way and probably always will, but it is the Team Spirit you get as a whole that makes clubs so important.

There are, as Pitlamp and Slug have mentioned, a lot more advantages to caving club membership than has been mentioned here, most of which probably wouldn't be even dreamed of let alone realised if you didn't give it a good go. The hut and the equipment are great but most regular cavers will probably be using their own ropes these days as they are a lot more affordable. I'm sure both Pitlamp and Slug will have thought of plenty more less tangible advantages since their last postings. Pitlamp was another SUSS - TSG migrator and features prominently in many of my earliest recollections of when I started caving and it was through membership of clubs that made it possible.

There is always going to be the club politics; personally I think that being told I have to hold insurance to go caving is outrageous and will probably (if anyone ever does make a successful claim) lead to all the current access arrangements based on cavers holding BCA Insurance being revoked when nobody will insure us any more. (But I digress?)   

Unfortunately we need our caving politicians, as much as we often hate some of their ridiculous ideas, to negotiate the often diametrically opposing views (see above) we have on things that affect our hobby. Our current national 'leaders' have learned their trade (some better than others) at grass roots caving club level and I think it is important that this process continues for the benefit of all. 

Long live the clubs and may they only increase in number. 

Mark Wright

 

[Peter Burgess]

I had dabbled a little in venturing underground, for a year or so before joining a club. It was a transformation - like coming of age. All of a sudden the opportunities for getting underground opened up. As the sites we were visiting were in the main local mines, and I had only been "sneaking" into them for fear of being asked to leave had we been spotted, the club legitimised (in my mind) what we were doing and opened (literally) lots of doors for further underground exploits. Had I not joined a club, I may well not have stayed a caver for so many years.

Seemingly successful and well-established clubs can fail very quickly. I urge anyone in what they see as a major well established club not to take their eye off the ball. Always look for ways to get new members, always welcome enquiries from the curious, always put the club ethos first, before any personal ambitions, and the club that is your second family should stay secure.

 

[kay]

I had dabbled a little in venturing underground, for a year or so before joining a club. It was a transformation - like coming of age. All of a sudden the opportunities for getting underground opened up. As the sites we were visiting were in the main local mines, and I had only been "sneaking" into them for fear of being asked to leave had we been spotted, the club legitimised (in my mind) what we were doing and opened (literally) lots of doors for further underground exploits. Had I not joined a club, I may well not have stayed a caver for so many years.

That's something I have been pondering about. Yes, it's easier to get underground if you're in a club (many of the caves in Northern Caves are out-of-bounds if you are not in a club) - but is the solution that everyone should join a club, or is it to find some other mechanism by which people can be recognised as responsible cavers and get access to caves?

There are other ways to learn caving apart from being in a club, so the main reason for access being via a club is so the club can say "this person isn't a complete idiot". But I know that I'm a better caver when I'm caving with friends than I am on a club meet where I'm trying to move faster than normal and not irritate everyone by my slowness.

 

[Peter Burgess]

What I was saying (not very well) was that the club provided the confidence to do far more than had I messed about as an individual for a few more years. As an individual I felt I was an intruder in the sites we were going to, as a club member I felt "legitimised". This may have been a false impression, but the inclusive friendliness of the club gave the boost I needed to move onwards and upwards and downwards. Because of my own experience, whenever I have the chance to contact those "poking around" places we look after, I try to engage and encourage, rather than warn them off as "intruders".

 

[Pitlamp]

Just to pick up on Mark's words above, being in a club enables you to meet characters such as Mr.P.B.Smith - a bloke who deserved much credit for the great SUSS to TSG transition that many of us thoroughly enjoyed. I wouldn't have missed those days for all the tea in China!

By the way Mark & friends - really enjoyed the Rowter article in the recent Descent; a damn fine effort by all involved.

 

[Lazarus]

Long live the club!

Extra tackle, meeting people who you wouldn't have met elsewhere, publications and access to libraries, social events (given an average turnout there's usually a fair few people you connect with), organised meets and permits arranged etc, learning, pooling of ideas, chance of gaining an insight in to activities you wouldn't have done just with mates. The few random things that pop out of my brain, I'm sure there are other benefits.

A point above made comment of smaller groups caving together under the umbrella of a club - yes, seen that, still happens, probably always will - does in other sports too. Some people prefer small groups they are familiar with - not everyone gets along or wants to be involved in large groups, just as in life. A social event and a few beers may be a different scenario though   

I'd hazard a guess there are a large number of club members that all get something different from their chosen club or clubs - such is the beauty of variety, which is apparently the spice of life....

 

[NewStuff]

While I have been in a club, I have decided I'd rather just go underground with whoever happens to pop up. Clubs of pretty much *any* sort are just not my thing.

My only issue is that despite getting insurance etc as an independent, a lot of old timers in other clubs refuse to acknowledge your existence, and as a result, no trips in "their holes". Thankfully, that seems to be changing somewhat.

 

[Fulk]

NewStuff:

My only issue is that despite getting insurance etc as an independent, a lot of old timers in other clubs refuse to acknowledge your existence, and as a result, no trips in "their holes".

I've no axe to grind here; I acknowledge everyone's existence; I simply don't understand what you're saying. Would you care to elucidate? What does 'no trips in their holes' mean?

 

[jasonbirder]

Many access agreements are only open to Cavers who are members of existing established clubs and bar access to individual insured cavers or BCA Direct Individual Members

 

[Duncan Price]

Many access agreements are only open to Cavers who are members of existing established clubs and bar access to individual insured cavers or BCA Direct Individual Members

The reason for this is usual so that there can be some come back in the event of a problem.  A landowner (for example) would much rather deal with a body (e.g. of the regional councils, a cvae management group etc.) than individuals and likewise such bodies would rather deal with clubs as a way of chaining down responsibility.

At least that's the way it has been explained to me over access to some sites.

I can sympathise with non-club cavers.  Most of my caving is done "independantly" of my club although I enjoy the social events the club organises, I go to plenty of other events organised by other clubs as well.

 

[kay]

Many access agreements are only open to Cavers who are members of existing established clubs and bar access to individual insured cavers or BCA Direct Individual Members

The reason for this is usual so that there can be some come back in the event of a problem.  A landowner (for example) would much rather deal with a body (e.g. of the regional councils, a cave management group etc.) than individuals and likewise such bodies would rather deal with clubs as a way of chaining down responsibility.

That seems a possible role for a national body - not to replace club access but to provide an alternative route for individuals. I feel uncomfortable about joining a club on a purely commercial basis "I'll pay subs to you if your meets sec will get permits for me, but I don't want to take any part in the other activities of the club" in a way that I wouldn't do paying a national body, in the same way that I pay the Canal and River Trust for a license to take a canoe on to canals.

 

[NewStuff]

Many access agreements are only open to Cavers who are members of existing established clubs and bar access to individual insured cavers or BCA Direct Individual Members

Spot on. Despite having exactly the same cover as a club caver, being a DIM, I have been told "no" by both landowners (usually educated, and all is good afterwards), and by clubs themselves. Not once has this answer from a club been a good outcome afterwards, despite showing them on the bloody website that I am indeed covered in the same way they are. Apparently, I "know f*** all" and am not covered. I'm 99.9% sure it's bullshit, as joining the club is almost inevitably mentioned very soon afterwards.  That is what I object to. To be fair, there are clubs out there that have the "Got your card? Here's the access details, have fun, be safe" attitude, My previous club being one of them. However, I have encountered myself, and heard of many more, that use "not a member, no trip" as a cudgel to make you join the club. I also seem to think it contravenes the BCA's own guidelines.

As mentioned above, I am not happy joining a club just to get into places. If I join something it's for the purpose intended, not to ease access issues that should not be there in the first place.I've made the effort to be responsible and get covered, but I get beaten back on a regular enough basis that, yet again, I understand why gates go walkies around here. I don't do it, but I can wholeheartedly understand the frustration of those that do.

 

[droid]

Is that just N Wales, or in other areas, NS?

 

[NewStuff]

Is that just N Wales, or in other areas, NS?

Personal experience, N.Wales, and plenty of it. Heard of (from impeccable sources), S.Wales, Midlands

 

[graham]

NewStuff

In some access agreements in which I am involved, although the landowners and member clubs are covered by BCA insurance. We don't actually require other visitors to be covered.

You see, we don't regard you as our problem in this regard. If you screw up, you get sued, and then you'll pay for it. if you wish to take that chance without PI cover that is up to you. We're covered, why should we worry whether you'll lose your house if you screw up?

 

[Bottlebank]

NewStuff

In some access agreements in which I am involved, although the landowners and member clubs are covered by BCA insurance. We don't actually require other visitors to be covered.

You see, we don't regard you as our problem in this regard. If you screw up, you get sued, and then you'll pay for it. if you wish to take that chance without PI cover that is up to you. We're covered, why should we worry whether you'll lose your house if you screw up?

To be fair Graham, is he not insured as a DIM?

 

[NewStuff]

NewStuff

In some access agreements in which I am involved, although the landowners and member clubs are covered by BCA insurance. We don't actually require other visitors to be covered.

You see, we don't regard you as our problem in this regard. If you screw up, you get sued, and then you'll pay for it. if you wish to take that chance without PI cover that is up to you. We're covered, why should we worry whether you'll lose your house if you screw up?

To be fair Graham, is he not insured as a DIM?

I am indeed. I am covered in, as I understand it, the exact same way as anyone in a club covered by BCA.

Had I decided to be an arse, I could go without cover, and they would have fun trying to take stuff off me, I own next to nothing. However, it's not really playing nice is it? So I don't. I like to do things the nice way, but sometimes you are forced into doing something an alternative way for no good reason.

 

[graham]

NewStuff

In some access agreements in which I am involved, although the landowners and member clubs are covered by BCA insurance. We don't actually require other visitors to be covered.

You see, we don't regard you as our problem in this regard. If you screw up, you get sued, and then you'll pay for it. if you wish to take that chance without PI cover that is up to you. We're covered, why should we worry whether you'll lose your house if you screw up?

To be fair Graham, is he not insured as a DIM?

Yes, that's right, he is.  And as far as I am concerned, that should be perfectly adequate for any agreement that requires PI cover.  My point was that the administration in that area don't mind one way or the other. I am aware of a couple of caves that require the showing of a BCA card and in the Dales, club membership is required.  I cannot off hand think of a single Mendip agreement that specifies insurance. I may be wrong, of course.

 

[martinr]

Newstuff - as you already have BCA insurance as a DIM, why not get together with 2 other like-minded souls, call yourself the Newstuff Caving Club, adopt a very basic constitution (rule 1 no subs, rule 2 the membership is limited to 3 people, rule 3 there is no rule 3) and bingo - your problem is solved?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I have come across the "do you have a card" argument, but never that it has to be a green one or no access. Frankly, that is an untenable stance to take, that one flavour of card is acceptable and another is not (apart from the "armchair" cover of course).