Clubs: Past, Present of Future?

[kay]

Newstuff - as you already have BCA insurance as a DIM, why not get together with 2 other like-minded souls, call yourself the Newstuff Caving Club, adopt a very basic constitution (rule 1 no subs, rule 2 the membership is limited to 3 people, rule 3 there is no rule 3) and bingo - your problem is solved?

I've frequently had this suggestion made to me, but it feels fundamentally dishonest. It's not really a club, the mandatory AGM and elections would be a bit of a farce, it's pretending to be a club to get over the permit hurdle. It just seems dishonest to me.

(And besides, all the usual arguments about an established club training their members and making sure they know how to behave in a cave just become a nonsense in the case of a non-club - it really is just a device to get over a hurdle, and serves no other useful purpose whatever).

 

[cap n chris]

  I cannot off hand think of a single Mendip agreement that specifies insurance. I may be wrong, of course.

All of the caves in Fairy Cave Quarry have access conditions requiring PL insurance "such as the BCAs".

 

[cap n chris]

And Reservoir Hole. I think a fair few visitors there probably haven't fulfilled this requirement but that's another story.

 

[Peter Burgess]

This topic is straying off piste, just a little.

 

[cap n chris]

And Sludge Pit Hole, although that appears to be slightly contradictory depending where you read the access info.

 

[bograt]

I've frequently had this suggestion made to me, but it feels fundamentally dishonest. It's not really a club, the mandatory AGM and elections would be a bit of a farce, it's pretending to be a club to get over the permit hurdle. It just seems dishonest to me.

I understand your concerns, but why is the 'permit hurdle' there in the first place??

Surely its better to form a 'pseudo club' than go cutting gates off.

 

[kay]

I've frequently had this suggestion made to me, but it feels fundamentally dishonest. It's not really a club, the mandatory AGM and elections would be a bit of a farce, it's pretending to be a club to get over the permit hurdle. It just seems dishonest to me.

I understand your concerns, but why is the 'permit hurdle' there in the first place??

Surely its better to form a 'pseudo club' than go cutting gates off.

I agree with you that damage to other people's property is worse than dishonesty which does no major harm except to my own self respect, but the alternative to not forming a pseudo-club is not to visit the cave. To suggest, as you have by quoting my post in your response, that I might advocate cutting gates off as an alternative, is unjustified by anything I have written.

 

[bograt]

I understand your concerns, but why is the 'permit hurdle' there in the first place??

Surely its better to form a 'pseudo club' than go cutting gates off.
[/quote]

I agree with you that damage to other people's property is worse than dishonesty which does no major harm except to my own self respect, but the alternative to not forming a pseudo-club is not to visit the cave. To suggest, as you have by quoting my post in your response, that I might advocate cutting gates off as an alternative, is unjustified by anything I have written.
[/quote]


I don't recall suggesting that you advocated cutting gates, all I said was that forming a 'pseudo club' was a preferable alternative, I do note that you have not answered my question about the 'permit hurdle'.

 

[kay]

I understand your concerns, but why is the 'permit hurdle' there in the first place??

Surely its better to form a 'pseudo club' than go cutting gates off.

I agree with you that damage to other people's property is worse than dishonesty which does no major harm except to my own self respect, but the alternative to not forming a pseudo-club is not to visit the cave. To suggest, as you have by quoting my post in your response, that I might advocate cutting gates off as an alternative, is unjustified by anything I have written.
[/quote]

I don't recall suggesting that you advocated cutting gates,
[/quote]

The implication was there.

I do note that you have not answered my question about the 'permit hurdle'.

Not sure what you're getting at? Are you saying that the "permit hurdle" is there so that only members of large established clubs should be able to get access, and that people who for whatever reason don't want to cave with a large club are quite rightly refused permission to enter permit caves, because there is no-one to guarantee their behaviour? That'd be a sensible stance if the caves requiring permits were precisely those which were the most susceptible to damage.

 

[bograt]

You did introduce the term 'permit hurdle' you have now accepted that you are not conversant with the protocol, do you really think you are qualified to comment?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Off piste, and now follows the avalanche.

 

[kay]

You did introduce the term 'permit hurdle' you have now accepted that you are not conversant with the protocol, do you really think you are qualified to comment?

Sorry, I've made your post meaningless by realising the intemperance of mine and modifying it while you were still compiling yours. I wouldn't have changed mine had I seen yours first.

My original comment said that I wasn't around when most of the permit systems were put in place.

What do you mean by "not conversant with the protocol"?

In the area in which I cave, I understand what the access requirements are for caves that I visit and for many that I don't, and I have spoken extensively to other cavers about why the access requirements were put in place in the first place, and why the people I have spoken to hold the different views that they do.

 

[bograt]

Thank you for making my post meaningless, I see no point in trying to educate the uneducatable, bye bye 

 

[paul]

[gmod]PLEASE KEEP ON TOPIC!! This is a discussion about Caving Clubs historically and in the future not about access or gates or insurance.[/gmod]

 

[Bartleby]

My own opinion.......*should point out that the situation below is hyperthetical.  Any similarity to clubs past, present and future is a coincidence*

Clubs cause more trouble then they are worth.  Too many chiefs not enough indians.  For instance *Club A controls access to cave B.  Club C wants to access cave B but cant get hold of Club A to arrange it.  Club C tries its hardest to arrange several trips but to no avail.  Club A is very evasive about the whole access issue and refuses to answer emails. Various persons gain access anyway to cave B.  Club A throws toys out of pram and seals only way in because of the access agreement with owner has been breached.  Toys are not only thrown out of the pram but the county.  Club A gets all up themselfs and buggers up access for good.....*

Being in a club does have its advantages but in my mind they are outweighed by the disadvantages.

 

[NewStuff]

Newstuff - as you already have BCA insurance as a DIM, why not get together with 2 other like-minded souls, call yourself the Newstuff Caving Club, adopt a very basic constitution (rule 1 no subs, rule 2 the membership is limited to 3 people, rule 3 there is no rule 3) and bingo - your problem is solved?

Having had a think about this, are there any guidelines to set this up? I fancy trying something, and know a few others that would approve of what I had in mind.

It does not detract at all from the fact that the attitude is the problem, and should not exist. I am a competent explorer, with proper insurance. What's the godamn problem?

 

[bograt]

Newstuff - as you already have BCA insurance as a DIM, why not get together with 2 other like-minded souls, call yourself the Newstuff Caving Club, adopt a very basic constitution (rule 1 no subs, rule 2 the membership is limited to 3 people, rule 3 there is no rule 3) and bingo - your problem is solved?

Having had a think about this, are there any guidelines to set this up? I fancy trying something, and know a few others that would approve of what I had in mind.

It does not detract at all from the fact that the attitude is the problem, and should not exist. I am a competent explorer, with proper insurance. What's the godamn problem?

No problem, just get a pro-forma constitution, tweak it to your requirements, and go for it! I have been responsible for setting up at least half a dozen legitimate bodies, at least 2, maybe 3, of them caving clubs .

P.M. me if you want further advice.

 

[NewStuff]

PM Incoming, much appreciated.

 

[droid]

Can I join your club please NewStuff?


I can swear proficiently and have an Honours Degree in annoyance and pisstaking.*




* That's a lie. It's actually in Plant Biology.....

 

[Simon Wilson]

We don't need any more new, small clubs. What we need are proper well-run clubs. There are plenty of good caving clubs. Just find the one you feel comfortable with, join them and contribute to the club in a positive way. You don't have to stick to one club. Some people are in several clubs and maybe get different things from different clubs.