Covid 19

[Fjell]

More on the second jab gap:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084

If you look at the BMA site, they refer only to medical staff. They are a union. They also wanted doctors vaccinated before 90 year olds. They were rebuffed on that one too. The people knocking them back are the most senior doctors in the country, the GMC level ones who hold the line on ethics. And the ethics say the patient comes before the doctor, it?s hammered into them at medical school, even more so these days after things like the Staffs debacle. The medical school recruitment criteria have also changed to try and get rid of the ones with zero empathy you might be familiar with over the years - some of those seem to hang out at the BMA.

 

[mikem]

Unfortunately everyone has different agendas in this crisis & there's no way that they can all be satisfied - some (mostly inner cities) are struggling to survive as they can't get work, or grants (or don't know about / won't apply for them)

 

[Brains]

More on the second jab gap:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084

If you look at the BMA site, they refer only to medical staff. They are a union. They also wanted doctors vaccinated before 90 year olds. They were rebuffed on that one too. The people knocking them back are the most senior doctors in the country, the GMC level ones who hold the line on ethics. And the ethics say the patient comes before the doctor, it?s hammered into them at medical school, even more so these days after things like the Staffs debacle. The medical school recruitment criteria have also changed to try and get rid of the ones with zero empathy you might be familiar with over the years - some of those seem to hang out at the BMA.

What good are dead and diseased medics?
Before the ABC of first aid you must decide if it is safe for you to do anything at all. To put it harshly the casualty dies before the team. To an extent this MUST apply across the spectrum of care

 

[pwhole]

It is an amazing fact that the NHS has so many vacancies available, even under austerity budgets. and we can't fill them. I know they're not all straightforward 'just turn up with a spanner' jobs, but I would have thought that many, many graduates and non-graduates would really want to work in health, especially it being such a growth industry, hahah. But it's good money too, if the work's at 'normal', humanly-manageable levels.

But that's also my fear about the vaccine - it becomes the 'easy' solution so many are used to in this country, and then they don't have to do the hard work they should be doing. And also relaxing their guard too early - my parents have already asked me if I want to visit them, and they only had their first jabs two weeks ago, and it's my mum's birthday on Tuesday. But no, it's not happening.

The other issue that really bothers me is the 'underlying health conditions' problem - that fact that such a gigantic percentage of the population has so many underlying health conditions is really desperate for a country this wealthy. Granted, some conditions are simply from us dramatically extending average lifespans, and thereby increasing the chances for 'something' to go wrong in each of us, but that's just obvious wear and tear in most cases. Also many have genetic causes that can be reasonably classed as 'bad luck' illness, and just have to be fixed, or at least attempted upon. My grandad dropped dead of a heart-attack at 66 when I was six, but his wife died of breast cancer 15 years later, slowly and horribly, as did one her daughters 15 years ago, my mum's identical twin. My mum's still here, with no breast cancer, at 82 (on Tuesday!).

But much of the rest is just sheer unfitness developing into serious physical problems that make treatment so much more difficult, and long-term dependent. Like 16-stone men having to be turned by small female nurses - it's ridiculous. And you don't solve that problem by getting more large female nurses. So I think it's becoming more and more important that everyone does their level best to stay as healthy as possible, all the time, and actually put real effort into doing it. Incentivise if necessary, but also whip folks if necessary. We can only rely on vaccines if we're robust enough to cover the percentage it's not covering, and the healthier you are, the less chance you have of developing bad symptoms. You might still get them, but much of that is just too random to even think about until we all have our own genetic profile on a card. Imagine dating sites then! Just don't be unhealthy if you don't have to be.

 

[Fjell]

It is ludicrous to give a second dose to medical staff in their 20?s and 30?s before a first dose to someone in their 70?s. There is probably a thousand to one ratio between their chance of death.

The only reason younger staff were given it was on the chance of reducing transmission, not death. My son says all the people his age (early 20?s) had a very strong and prolonged reaction to the jab, and I think you can assume something is fizzing just fine. Our carer (25?) was sick for several days. None of our parents noticed a thing, so if anyone needs the second it?s the oldies I suspect.

 

[pwhole]

It's looking like a lack of Vitamin D again, especially with dark-skinned people. It's purely personal and anecdotal but I've been taking it for several years (with magnesium citrate) and haven't had so much as a cold since:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-81419-w

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jan/10/does-vitamin-d-combat-covid

 

[mikem]

Sounds like you need to get out for a walk.

Unfortunately ill health & exhaustion, from long hours at work, reduce your vitamin D uptake:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/9-things-that-can-undermine-your-vitamin-d-level

 

[pwhole]

Haha - if I'm not on my computer I'm out walking. But there's not much UV at this time of year - or indoors (or underground) any time of year - and it's a trivial expense at a fiver a bottle for no risk, and potential immunity from severe symptoms.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Good call. Just ordered some online from Boots. It'll strengthen me old bones, if nothing else.

 

[mikem]

Provisional numbers of deaths are available from ONS for England & Wales in 2020 & they are about 76,000 more than last year (& the average for last 5 years - last year was lower than the average). This is about a 14% increase, compared to 3.5% increase in population over the same period.

The number of excess deaths at end of year (c.22,000) is much less than seen during first lockdown (c.54,000), as we would normally have more flu related at this time of year anyway.

 

[Duck ditch]

Oh no.  just realised that the reason we are only vaccinating once is so that the figures look good.  It?s like the ppe.  A pair of gloves counted as two remember.  Ive been duped. 
Still doing reasonable on the vaccinations keep it up. 

 

[Tripod]

It is interesting to hear the government's line on delaying the second dose of vaccine - and the opposite view from the scientific and medical perspectives. Yes - the vaccination figures are good publicity but is it reasonable and is it effective?

I see that Professor Van-Tam is telling vaccinated people not to go out. Has been quite straightforward about the use and limitations of the vaccines from the start but this is too little to late yet again. One idiot in change of a vaccination centre said on television a few days ago "the old people are so grateful that they can go out again". That person ought to be struck off the professionals register or at least strongly disciplined.

At the most recent televised government Coronavirus briefing one spokesperson was defending the second dose delay, dismissing cautious reports from overseas and basically promoting the vaccine. Well - with a substantial shareholding in the company he would say that, wouldn't he? 

Statistically there should have been more reports of adverse reactions to vaccination but in the mass media there have been two (if I have that wrong it is still not a topic we hear about that way).

I have been told by a medic. that the mRNA given in the vaccine is 'all used up" in producing anti-bodies. Well, to my simple way of seeing things that represents an astounding level of precision. Fears regarding the possible, serious, long term effects of the vaccines include those involving the injected RNA staying in the body for life. 

I would like to subscribe to the idea that the development of the vaccines and the mass vaccination programme are a triumph for mankind and the answer to everything but, particularly feeling that we have been "played" by the government throughout the pandemic I find it very difficult.

 

[Speleofish]

Taking Tripod's points in turn:

I think the majority of genuine UK experts support the government's approach, albeit not uncritically. There is a small risk and there is some uncertainty (as there always is in medicine). However, the consensus is that that the risks outweigh the benefits *. Most of the reports of 'vaccine failure' after the first dose refer to people falling ill in the first few days after vaccination (ie before the vaccine has had time to work) or developing relatively mild disease rather than life-threatening disease. This seems to be the case in Israel who have produced the most data on this so far - overall, I think this supports the government position.

many old people have been isolating indoors since March (certainly around me) and haven't been out at all. After the vaccine, many are now sufficiently confident that they can now venture out for their daily exercise. I suspect this is what the person interviewed on television actually meant. This doesn't mean wild geriatric partying, more a small step towards normality.

I don't understand the point about spokespeople and shareholdings. It doesn't matter whether you give the vaccine doses three weeks or three months apart, everyone still gets two doses and the company makes just as much money (though a little more slowly).

There have been numerous reports of adverse reactions, especially to the Pfizer vaccine. Most have been mild UNLESS you are prone to anaphylaxis (still seems to be very rare but it explains the 15 minute post-vaccination observation period). The one caution comes from Norway where they have preliminary data suggesting that reactions that would be well-tolerated in healthy people may be too much for the very frail and elderly. I'd expect to see more on this in the next few weeks.

mRNA has a very short lifespan  in the body (ranging from minutes to, at most, a few days). It cannot interact with your DNA so cannot have longterm genetic effects. The idea that it can hang around for years causing harm is only slightly less ridiculous than the idea that the vaccine contains chips....


[gmod]Should read benefits outweigh the risks see Speleofish's correction in post below.[/gmod]

 

[PeteHall]

However, the consensus is that that the risks outweigh the benefits

From the context, I assume this is a typo and you suggest that the benefits outweigh the risks and from what I've read, with a dose of common sense, I agree. This seems to be one of few sensible decisions that the government has made recently...

 

[mikem]

For comparison (not that we have any figures yet) - from Oxford uni report: "In the UK between 1997 and 2003 there were a total of 130 reports of anaphylaxis following ALL immunisations. Around 117 million doses of vaccines were given in the UK during this period. This means that the overall rate of anaphylaxis is around 1 in 900,000."

So with 5 million vaccinations done so far you'd expect 5 anaphylactic reactions, but they are vaccinating the most vulnerable first, so number will be higher.

 

[Speleofish]

Ooops! Typo it is! Benefits outweigh risks. Should have had coffee before going onto internet.


[gmod]Added a note regarding the typo in the original post.[/gmod]

 

[Laurie]

I've noticed that one or two people on here seem to have a very cavalier approach to Covid deaths, either trying to minimise the absolute figure or hinting that the dying 'would have died anyway' because they were old/suffering co-morbidities/old AND suffering co-morbidities.

I really hope I'm not alone in thinking this is a shockingly callous attitude.

I had my first jab yesterday.
Too late for my lovely wife.
I probably didn't need it as I easily beat it back in April.
I just felt so guilty...

There is nothing to joke about over Covid.

 

[Speleofish]

There's an interview with Andrew Pollard (leader of the Oxford Vaccine Group and chair of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation),  in last week's BMJ. The original intention was for the Oxford vaccine to be single dose only. A subgroup were given two doses and showed a better immune response, so they shifted to a two dose regimen. This meant they had to go back and re-vaccinate people who had originally received one dose. Those with the greater gaps between doses seemed to show better responses than those who were vaccinated 3 weeks apart. This sounds like further support for the government's strategy.

 

[Rachel]

Another factor with delaying the 2nd dose of the vaccine is an increase in nhs staff absences. I'm in the clinically extremely vulnerable group and had to shield during the first lockdown. In August, I returned to work, albeit with a higher level of ppe than my colleagues and was perfectly happy with that. However, as numbers have gone up and up and several of my fit and healthy colleagues have had extended absences and failed attempts to return to work after contracting covid, the trust has changed its policy. I was told last week that I needed to go home and stay home until 2 weeks after my 2nd vaccine. If the govt had kept to the original schedule, I would have had it and got back to work already. As it is, I'll be off work until April. And there are four other people in my department in the same position, so multiplied across the nhs, it adds up to a ridiculously high loss of staff when most needed.

 

[Speleofish]

Ouch. I'm also supposed to be vulnerable, which wasn't a major issue in the first wave: I wasn't allowed to be on the intubating teams but otherwise worked more-or-less as normal. We did have good PPE, so the only times I felt at risk were in planning meetings whilst we were setting up for armageddon and showing in the local supermarket. However, having tried to go back to work (not in the same city as I've moved) I've been told I'm too vulnerable and to stay away until I've been vaccinated (hopefully this week). However, they only want one jab plus three weeks, so I should be able to do something useful from mid-late February.

It might be worth asking your local vaccination centre if you can be on their standby list for spare doses (most places have a few each day) - that's how I'm hoping to get mine.