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Cuckoo Cleeves Closed

Les W

Active member
Following further studies at Cuckoo Cleeves the cave will remain closed for the foreseeable future.
A comprehensive series of checks is under way to monitor the air in the cave for the next week or so.

Please stay away from this cave until you are informed that it has been reopened.

Les Williams
CSCC C&A Officer
 

graham

New member
Les W said:
I don't disagree with what you say Graham but we really should be aiming for a situation where we have an "informed" caving community with the decisions on entry being theirs.

Say there was a problem at Goatchurch, how would all the disparate visitors to that site be informed?
 
C

Clive G

Guest
graham said:
Les W said:
I don't disagree with what you say Graham but we really should be aiming for a situation where we have an "informed" caving community with the decisions on entry being theirs.

Say there was a problem at Goatchurch, how would all the disparate visitors to that site be informed?


Clive G said:
Read the guidebooks, check the chat columns, call in at the most local caving shop or caving club and remain alert at all times.

 

graham

New member
The relevant word is "disparate". many visitors will not know those sources of information exist.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Anyone visiting Cuckoo Cleeves will require a key. Most of them will have one.

Anyone visiting Goatchurch Cavern will require a clue. Most of them haven't got one.

Actually, kidding apart, the point is pretty sound; CC is a locked cave and people visiting are easily informed of the state of the poor air with a sign being placed inside the lid, dated of course; if Goatchurch had a poor air problem there is presently no way whatsoever of controlling access and ensuring the numerous visitors (many of which are completely unknown/non-cavers) are informed of the problem(s).
 

Roger W

Well-known member
You could put a warning notice up in the entrance, I suppose, but...

How long would it last?

Would anyone take any notice?

What sort of a precedent would you be setting?
 

Les W

Active member
A warning notice at the entrance would work fine. If it was checked regullarly. Perhaps with notices in the nearby parking spaces as well. I'm pretty certain the led group (ie. Professional) sector would disseminate the information quite quickly.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Er, I'm pretty sure the professional sector doesn't go to Cuckoo Cleeves for starters; secondly a warning notice would work (provided it was also done in symbols for the cavers who don't read) and finally what exactly is wrong with setting precedents? - we should be setting precedents all the time, wherever and whenever possible IMO. The more, the better. Precedent on, Wayne!
 

graham

New member
I do agree with Chris about setting precedents. If someone needs doing then we need to be doing it. Under a circumstance like this it would be wholly wrong to do nothing. I have already lost one friend, one who was a seriously cautious caver, to such a problem. I do not wish to lose anyone else.
 

Les W

Active member
Just to clarify, my comments above were in response to Grahams comment

graham said:
Say there was a problem at Goatchurch, how would all the disparate visitors to that site be informed?


The comments concerning the professional sector were therefore directed at Goatchurch and not Cuckoo
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
If there was a genuine problem at Goatchurch and you needed to (seriously) inform people about it then for that particular site I'd say you might even need to consider a last resort such as using the Press and/or televised news! You would be correct about the professional sector, though, insofar as they inform one another on a very regular basis of anything untoward that needs addressing.
 

whitelackington

New member
The very dicey thing is that the condition of the air in a particular cave can for some inexplicable reasons change so rapidly.
Amazing after a hundred years of caving we still haven't a clue what's going on.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
We know which caves (on Mendip) routinely suffer poor air - the main ones are, in no particular order: White Pit, Maesbury Swallet, Little Crapnell Swallet, Cuckoo Cleeves, Tynings Barrows Swallet and GB Cavern. What we do not know are the reason(s) causing this; however, for the first time we have access to accurate (!) testing devices and may be in a better position to begin pinpointing the cause(s) of poor air. The present debate, however, seems to focus on what to do once it is known that a site has poor air - should a sign simply inform people who then make up their own mind or should access control bodies/landowners be more proscriptive in their actions? - assuming the latter, how often do you test and what is the cut off line/time for reappraising any control(s) placed on the site.

Why limit yourself to a 100 year time frame, though? - surely it's just as easy to say that over the last couple of million years since people have been using caves we haven't figured out the definitive cause of poor air in any individual site and, presumably by extending the line, we therefore won't be able to do so for another x years?

Going off on a fantasy tangent might include high fencing, guard dogs, CCTV cameras, filling sites in with concrete, setting up machine gun nests etc..
 

graham

New member
Actually, the situation is more complex than us not just knowing what the detailed causes are. Some sites do, as Chris says, suffer routinely but others don't. G.B. is a case in point; when this was closed a few years back, it was the first time since its discovery that bad air had been reported there. The underlying conditions may well be changing even as we struggle to understand them.

Incidentally, I have it on good authority that the streamway in Charterhouse is fresh even though Portal Pool is currently closed, meaning that G.B. is unlikely to have any problems at present.
 

pete h

New member
graham said:
Incidentally, I have it on good authority that the streamway in Charterhouse is fresh even though Portal Pool is currently closed, meaning that G.B. is unlikely to have any problems at present.

I am sure the air curents in GB and Charterhouse are not connected as when GB was shut for bad air Charterhouse boulder choke was doing what it has always done, draught out strongly with no sign of bad air.
All though we captured the stream from GB no solid choke was dug through so the air currents would not have changed.
 

Elaine

Active member
Oh no. I remember doing Charterhouse trips whilst GB was having bad air and thinking that the air in Charterhouse was definitely worse than usual.

I will have to accept now that it was just me being hideously unfit. Though I shall stick to my bad air story if ever asked why I am so far behind!
 

whitelackington

New member
When down G.B. a couple of weeks ago, the "new" water outlet, Main Chamber
was full up and water was surging down to the old sump and flowing away.
As the old sump mostly does not now take water but can in times of high water
wouldn't this lead us to think that there is an air connection through the old sump?
 
C

Clive G

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
We know which caves (on Mendip) routinely suffer poor air - the main ones are, in no particular order: White Pit, Maesbury Swallet, Little Crapnell Swallet, Cuckoo Cleeves, Tynings Barrows Swallet and GB Cavern.

. . .

This sounds like someone needs to check the source of the inlet streams to these caves and find out where they are coming from and what is getting into the water supply at these particular localities.

One possibility is farmyard drains feeding farmyard manure (along with whatever else) into the groundwater catchment for the caves in question. It can't just be manure alone since this has been present in a number of Mendip caves for many years without anything other than the usual deleterious effects being experienced by cavers.

The bad air is more likely to be arising from a surfeit of some highly toxic fertilizer or, most likely, pesticide . . .

In times of heavy rainfall the quantities concerned are going to be well diluted and flushed through the cave systems relatively quickly, but, when the water flow is sluggish, then little oxygen is being carried into the caves to help freshen up the general atmosphere.

But, it's not just as simple as throwing the rule book at farmers, because if their food production levels go down or they simply go out of business trying to keep up with ever more stringent regulations, then we shall ultimately all starve and then won't feel up to going caving, anyway.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
On Mendip we love our farmers and wouldn't do anything to incur their wrath; therefore even if there was the remotest possibility that farming practices had anything to do with air conditions underground we'd never pursue this avenue of enquiry. Sleeping dogs are lovely and fluffy.
 
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