Dan-yr-Ogof Warden Permits

[Tony_B]

Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum but thought it was time I joined in.

At the end of 2006 I took over the role of Wardens' Secretary for the Dan-yr-Ogof Cave Advisory Committee. All of the old-style permits expired at the end of June this year and to date I have received around 40 renewals, some way short of the total number who previously held permits. So I suspect that many people who think they are Wardens may not have spotted that their permit has expired, and will be in for a nasty surprise when the DYO staff turn them away on their next visit!

The good news is that there is no longer a charge to renew a permit (although fresh applicants are still required to pay a £10 fee) and you can download the necessary form, either for a renewal or for a first-time permit, from the DYOCAC website at www.dyo.org.uk

Regards,
Tony.

 

[darkplaces]

Why are permits needed if they don't generate money and can anyone get a permit, if so doesn't that make the permit system pointless?

Not after an argument about permits I beleave the use of such access restriction should be challenged if they don't actually do anything other then add hoops to jump though.

For example the CCC permits have a place, to run a company to provide a consistent and fairly open access, don't have any issues with this. Does yours do the same?

 

[graham]

Why are permits needed if they don't generate money and can anyone get a permit, if so doesn't that make the permit system pointless?

Not after an argument about permits I beleave the use of such access restriction should be challenged if they don't actually do anything other then add hoops to jump though.

For example the CCC permits have a place, to run a company to provide a consistent and fairly open access, don't have any issues with this. Does yours do the same?

I suggest you take the matter up with Ashford Price the owner of the cave. He is the person who decides who he allows into his cave and the conditions that he wishes to apply. He has decided that every trip should be accompanied by a Conservation Warden.

However, I warn you that Ashford can be quite protective over his property and if he finds your approach offensive he is quite capable of stopping all access. If that happens I suggest that you keep away from South Wales for some time.

 

[darkplaces]

That pointless post hasn't answered my bollocking question has it.... HAS IT! Shut the f%$kup and let the man answer the question.

What does the permit system achieve?
How does it enable access?

Thats the realm of my interest. A permit system must have a point to it be it cover costs of access management (CCC) or define a criteria to which has to  be attained. For example (out of the air) only SRT capable people can get a permit meaning everyone with a permit can safely do SRT.

Like I said I didn't want an argument just an answer and I think I was fair with the questions and honest about my views.

If like the CCC permits it all seams reasonable I'll give my support.

Mole nuts

 

[graham]

What does the permit system achieve?
How does it enable access?

It keeps the Landowner happy. 

Quite frankly it doesn't need your support, but if you act in a fashion that screws access for others then you might need a support.

 

[darkplaces]

What does the permit system achieve?
How does it enable access?

It keeps the Landowner happy.  :icon_321:

Well thats bollocks then and not a correct answer. I'll wait for Tony_B who seams to know about the subject not just fob me off with 'because I said so'.

I'm interested!

sheep tittes

Additionally - yes it does need my support (if its reasonable), lets not forget I have the biggest growth rate of any organisation and I can reach more people then you so if someone is interested to visit I can push the idea of using the permit system or I can say its bollocks and leave people to choose which method of entry they want. 

 

[cap n chris]

Keeping cave-owning landowners happy is exceptionally important.

Keeping cave-owning landowners happy is also exceptionally important because it keeps cavers who visit their caves happy, too; avoiding upsetting cavers who are not allowed to visit caves on cave-owning landowners' land is also very important. There's a lot of important stuff going on here.

 

[Les W]

Darkplaces,
The warden system at DYO keeps the cave accesible to cavers. Without it there would be no access at all.

It is a land owner requirtement that all trips are accompanied by a warden. The warden permits are basically proof to the showcave staff that you are on the current warden list and are permitted access.

There is a lot of history here and this system of access is the only way that cavers were given access after the last round of "history". 

When you have a spare hour one night I will give you the background to all this.

Hope this helps.

Les

 

[darkplaces]

It is a land owner requirement that all trips are accompanied by a warden. The warden permits are basically proof to the showcave staff that you are on the current warden list and are permitted access.

ahhh now thats what I wanted to know. I understand, its not for visitors but for the wardens who show the visitors around. So I contact a warden who has a pass (permit) and arrange a trip.

Ok, well if old Graham-its-the-law-poo-poster had said that to start with I would have been happy.

Thank you. at last.

 

[graham]

Additionally - yes it does need my support (if its reasonable), lets not forget I have the biggest growth rate of any organisation and I can reach more people then you so if someone is interested to visit I can push the idea of using the permit system or I can say its bollocks and leave people to choose which method of entry they want. 

You do that - and see just what happens to you if you attempt to break into a show cave.

 

[cap n chris]

No. Don't do it. Please don't try. Don't even have the idea in your head for one moment.

The results would only be unwelcome.

 

[darkplaces]

I don't need to and wont be encouraging that, of course I cant control anyone I speak to. I now have the answer to my question and am happy all is reasonable.

 

[dudley bug]

The warden system is not designed to restrict people from visiting the cave, simply to preserve this well decorated cave, a SSSI and also ensure that the access of cavers does not compromise the operation of the showcave.

Any trips into Dan Yr Ogof have to be through the showcave complex.
To allow cavers to make trips outside the showcave opening times (either out of showcave season or out of hours for longer trips) wardens need to have access to keys to the cave to ensure that the cave is locked on exit and ensure that cars on the carpark do not cause alarm to the showcave staff (a car at the end of the day on the carpark can cause a search of the caves unless the showcave staff are aware that it belongs to cavers).

Most major clubs will have members who are wardens, but anyone who is unable to find a warden to take you in, please make contact though the dyo.org.uk website and we will try and arrange a warden to take you on your preferred date.

Brendan

 

[darkplaces]

Cool, shame visitors need insurance, can temporary insurance for one off visits be gained, for example parys mountain (PUG) provide this feature. A feature  the BCA membership system caters for.

Sounds like a reasonable question to me I think. - Graham is banned from answering though.

 

[graham]

If you thought about it really hard and followed the links you would realise that the answer to your question lies within it.

'cos like it or not you have no power to ban me from posting here.

 

[darkplaces]

huh....?

5        Each caver wishing to enter the cave must give evidence of his holding an adequate acceptable Public Liability cover to the agent of the Showcave Management or of the Committee at the relevant access point for the trip.

So that's a NO then as it doesn't expressly say it can provide temporary insurance?

 

[Les W]

BCA can provide temporary membership and insurance but Dan Yr Ogof cannot. BCA's temporary membership and insurance cover is available to clubs to ensure guests and prospective members have any required cover before they join a club.

Parys Mountain are a club so this facility/service is available to them DYOCAC is not a club so cannot provide it.

 

[graham]

I suspect that it is still the case that the only PI policy that is acceptable to the Show Cave management is the BCA one. So, taking Les's point into account, effectively Dan yr Ogof can only be accessed by BCA members, be they direct individual members or club individual members.

 

[darkplaces]

So I presume the Wardens are not cavers from a BCA Club who could for a small fee organise temp cover?

The idea is excessive use of temp cover makes it wise to become a BCA member being cheaper in the long run and helping with the over all BCA insurance kitty.

Just trying to think of a solution that's all using carrot (yes you can for a small fee) rather then stick (NO you have to be insured.)

Burp

 

[darkplaces]

I suspect that it is still the case that the only PI policy that is acceptable to the Show Cave management is the BCA one. So, taking Les's point into account, effectively Dan yr Ogof can only be accessed by BCA members, be they direct individual members or club individual members.

Or temporary club members of which a percentage is allowed based on club size I beleave. Just depends if the wardens would do that.

I'm not trying to argue it just think its an interesting feature of the BCA membership that can be used to promote caving.