Dan-yr-Ogof Warden Permits

[cap n chris]

A temporary club member would surely most likely* equate to a newcomer, rather than an experienced caver.

* Bound to be exceptions.

 

[Les W]

So I presume the Wardens are not cavers from a BCA Club who could for a small fee organise temp cover?

Most, if not all the wardens are members of BCA member clubs, and I guess that if their clubs wanted to offer temporary membership it would do as you suggest. However, most clubs probably can't be bothered with the additional hassle that temporary membership requires, especially if it is of no real benefit to them directly.

The idea is excessive use of temp cover makes it wise to become a BCA member being cheaper in the long run and helping with the over all BCA insurance kitty.

Just trying to think of a solution that's all using carrot (yes you can for a small fee) rather then stick (NO you have to be insured.)

Unfortunatley the solution lies with disparate clubs and not with the DYOCAC or with BCA.

Burp

Pardon!

 

[darkplaces]

A temporary club member would surely most likely* equate to a newcomer, rather than an experienced caver.

* Bound to be exceptions.

Yes exceptions. Plenty of highly skilled people don't have insurance, don't need it, have never needed it, will never need it apart from the odd visit to places that seam to think they need it. - But that's another argument which I DON'T want to get into.

Sadly it would be down to the Wardens clubs to 'deal' with the hassle. The good clubs are the ones who encourage membership this way.

 

[cap n chris]

apart from the odd visit to places that seam to think they need it. - But that's another argument which I DON'T want to get into.

But no-one else is arguing other than you.

"Seem to think they need it" - Hmm. No. They require you to have it if you want to visit. No "seem" about it. It's a requirement. There are highly skilled drivers, are there not?

 

[paul]

A temporary club member would surely most likely* equate to a newcomer, rather than an experienced caver.

* Bound to be exceptions.

Yes exceptions. Plenty of highly skilled people don't have insurance, don't need it, have never needed it, will never need it apart from the odd visit to places that seam to think they need it. - But that's another argument which I DON'T want to get into.

The insurance which various landowners etc. stipulate, in relatively few locations, is to cover Third-Party claims, not to cover the cavers themselves. It has nothing to do with the likelihood of the cavers themselves coming to grief or having an accident, it is to provide cover for the landowner (or whoever is allowing access to the cave) from claims. Nobody wants it but a few landowners insist on it as a condition of access so it is a necessary evil.

Sadly it would be down to the Wardens clubs to 'deal' with the hassle. The good clubs are the ones who encourage membership this way.

Unfortunately, the temporary insurance is only for a limited time - to cover 2 weekends and the days in between and cannot be renewed for an individual - I believe - to allow for individuals to have a couple of caving trips before deciding whether to continue. This is why the club's don't normally like doing it just for an individual to go caving in a particular cave and then never be seen again.

 

[darkplaces]

whoooo STOP right now... Like I said I don't want to start the insurance argument.

I'v already proved your all wrong.

 

[paul]

whoooo STOP right now... Like I said I don't want to start the insurance argument.

Fair enough - just trying to be helpful. I used to be a Dan-yr-Ogof "leader" (as they were known then) many years ago.

I'v already proved your all wrong.

Can't see how - for example if you wish to visit Peak Cavern, the owners say you MUST have third-party liability insurance. Just as if they insisted on all cavers MUST wear pink oversuits to gain entry - that's their access condition and you either comply or get refused access. But, as you say, there's no point arguing.

 

[graham]

whoooo STOP right now... Like I said I don't want to start the insurance argument.

I'v already proved your all wrong.

yeah right  :

The point is that Ashford doesn't want the hassle of discovering whether every Dai, Dick & Hywel is highly skilled or not and doesn't see why he should take their word for it when a safer and simpler (from his point of view) alternative exists.

Whether he is right or not is quite beside the point, he owns it.

 

[cap n chris]

No, it's not beside the point, WADR.

He owns it. Therefore he is right. That's the point.

 

[graham]

Sorry, I should have said:

whether you or I think he is right is beside the point ....

 

[jasonbirder]

Root you're arguing for the sake of it...

DYO is a showcave run as a business by the owner and cavers are very fortunate that the landowner has come up with a system that protects his interests and investment and allows easy and un-restricted access to cavers.

As there are many Wardens it is easy to arrange a visit - either direct with a warden or via the DYO access website if you don't.

The requirement for Insurance is a complete red herring...how many people wanting to access DYO won't be a member of a caving club? So few as to make no difference...

Arguing for the sake of it just gives people negative vibes about the Darkplaces website and makes it less likely that knowledgable, experienced and active underground explorers will join and contribute...

 

[jasonbirder]

And this was a helpful and informative site specific post by Tony_B that has just been hijacked into a pointless biff-bash to & fro argument!
Apologies to Tony_B 

 

[dudley bug]

Tony's original post was placed to ensure that no one unknowingly missed out on access to the cave.

For the record BCA insurance is the only insurance cover that is accepted by the showcaves insurers.

BCA member clubs can offer temporary insurance to new members to cover "taster trips". Trips beyound the Long Crawl in DYO are not classed as being suitable for novices, so in practice temporary BCA insurance rarely comes into play in this cave.

 

[danthecavingman]

Hi Tony,

Nice to see you finally posting, hope you will jump in and add some useful input.

Don't expect to get this level of argument everytime you post!

Dan.

 

[graham]

Arguing for the sake of it just gives people negative vibes about the Darkplaces website and makes it less likely that knowledgable, experienced and active underground explorers will join and contribute...

Should that be the case I suspect you can blame it on the one who gets so aggressive about access agreements and insurance and - for some unknown reason seems to be strongly connected with that particular site.

BTW Dan-yr-Ogof is my second favourite cave in South Wales, after LNRC.

 

[Dep]

whoooo STOP right now... Like I said I don't want to start the insurance argument.
I'v already proved your all wrong.

Hi DP - you said you wouldn't mind sorting out the occassional temporary insurance when you need it.

If you (or anyone) does that more than a few times in a year, and taking into account the buggeration factor of having to sort it out, chase it up and so on, you might as well join a club and pay their fee plus £15.
The  you need never worry about insurance again.

Job done. It's not giving over to the establishment, it's simply ensuring an easier life for yourself! For 99% of cavers this seems to be a no brainer.

I could be wrong but I believe that you personally are now a caving club member and so do have (and benefit from) this automatic blanket cover we all have?

One other key point about DYO...
To be a warden ensures that you know how the cave behaves when it is wet, what not to walk on, what to look out for and so on - this way the owners can be sure you are with a competent accountable person at all times so they can relax.

 

[darkplaces]

Hi DP - you said you wouldn't mind sorting out the occassional temporary insurance when you need it.

If you (or anyone) does that more than a few times in a year, and taking into account the buggeration factor of having to sort it out, chase it up and so on, you might as well join a club and pay their fee plus £15.
The  you need never worry about insurance again.

Occasional insurance opens a route people might take which might lead to full insurance. Someone who doesn't want to be insured may be happy to pay £5 for temporary insurance to visit something once.

Returning  back to the topic, just for a second;
"How does a couple of skilled individuals not interested in clubs visit Dan-yr-Ogof past the show cave"?

Plenty of people go underground DONT want to be insured and DONT want/need to be part of a club so its very likely that a non-club non-insured person might want to visit.

Sometimes I think you all assume everyone is in a club and that's how it is and nobody goes underground without being in a club??

Wrong assumptions.
1. Everyone is in a club - no more people then you can shake a stick at go underground and are not in a BCA based club (in the BCA sense of the word club).
2. Someone who isnt in a club and so not insured is a Novice/newbie or 1st timer - No I'v seen just as many skilled non club people as club people.
3. Insurance is normal - no it is not, you can visit a lot of places without insurance, it seams only a few places actually require it. So insurance is actually a minority requirement. I guess the mine-explorer world is less tied up with this scam.

Now see what you lot have done you made me argue the point I didnt want to because this topic is screwed now.

All I am trying to do is find out how these type of people can visit. Call it 'Pay as you go caving'..

 

[graham]

All I am trying to do is find out how these type of people can visit.

They can join a club. 

This is not a spurious comment. We all make choices in life. Some choose not to join caving clubs, some (Ashford Price) choose not to let such people down their caves.

 

[Hughie]

Plenty of people go underground DONT want to be insured and DONT want/need to be part of a club so its very likely that a non-club non-insured person might want to visit.

If insurance is required for access then so be it. If one wants access to such places, one has to have it.

2. Someone who isnt in a club and so not insured is a Novice/newbie or 1st timer - No I'v seen just as many skilled non club people as club people.

I thought it was possible to get direct insurance from BCA (might be wrong though).

 

[Les W]

I thought it was possible to get direct insurance from BCA (might be wrong though).

You are indead wrong 

BCA is not able to sell insurance (FSA rules).
BCA has insurance as a membership benefit so you need to join BCA to recieve this benefit.
You can join BCA as a Direct Individual Member (DIM) or as a Club Individual Member (CIM).
These two categories are both Individual membership with the same rights (attend AGM, voting, etc) but the CIM has less benefits for less cost (No newsletter, no Speleology, etc.). The reason CIM is cheaper is that a persons club undertakes part of the admin and also has communication responsibilities for that member on behalf of BCA to reduce costs.
If somebody wanted insurance but not to join a club then they can only achieve this by becoming a BCA DIM, although some people might say that they were just swapping a local club for a national club.  :-\