Danger - Rhinos Rift

[cap n chris]

As for comparability of tests, a good test of something that you intend to have continuing to serve its original purpose should not significantly alter the state of the item being tested. If it does then the item was either faulty or the test was badly designed. Testing something to destruction is not the same thing.

That was my point...

If something is designed to take a load then it would seem that a valid and reasonable test would be to place a load within a defined tolerance upon that device; if it cannot withstand the (reasonable) load without failing then surely it is not fit for purpose?

 

[cucc Paul]

Spits can supposedly hold 15KN on a straight pull, and the petzl resin anchors can withstand 15KN on a straight pull, if installed correctly, therefore P bolts would be comparable to this 15KN figure. Therefore they should easyily shrug off 6KN as this is less than half the rating.  I believe it is more likely to be something environmental to the region, either the more fractured limstone, which has already been mentioned or something within the surrounding environment of the anchor such as the surrounding air or water reacting with the resin, either once in place or during the curing process. I think the later more likely.

The bolt that failed initially looked as if the resin had not bonded propperly to the bolt as the seperation between the two was very clean, no resin remained on the bolt and a perfect mould was left in the resin. Leading me to think along the lines of water ingress along the bolt during curing preventing a good bond between the two surfaces. I dont know the exact chemisty of the resin so this might not be an issue.

Alternativly disolved salts in the rock, higher than average acid concentration in the water, or any combination of things could react with the resin while its setting, weakening it or preventing a good bond between surfaces. Again i don't know the chemistry that could be behind this and I am just theorising.

I'm guessing as no one has said anything the re-opening of the cave is still some way off 

 

[whitelackington]

Yes a huge pity.
We were all greatly grateful that in recent times
The Mendip "P" Bolt fiasco had come to an end.

 

[Dep]

...
The bolt that failed initially looked as if the resin had not bonded propperly to the bolt as the seperation between the two was very clean, no resin remained on the bolt and a perfect mould was left in the resin. Leading me to think along the lines of water ingress along the bolt during curing preventing a good bond between the two surfaces.
...

A silly observation but one I will make anyway...
It has been pointed out (by Graham or CnC I think) that there are enough test-failures here to statistically indicate a significant 'issue' with the bolts in these two sites. This suggests a systematic error in emplacement perhaps.

This could easily be something as silly as sweaty fingers - a thin film of skin-grease on steel could cause this to happen, or protective oil layers not being adequately cleaned off and so on.

Given the level of care on this subject I will be very surprised if there turns out to be any obvious fault such as bad holes, bad hangers or incorrectly mixed resin - I am sure that the people doing it were competent enough to have done this all perfectly.
If this does indeed turn out to be the case then it may be something silly like I have suggested above that is the cause.

 

[badger]

Dep think if the failure is due to your observations, failures would be happening all over the caving regions that have placed P bolts, the fact that this not happening would suggest that the mendip failure is due to something else, and all conjecture and specultation is of no point. We need to wait for the expert report from those conducting the investigation.

 

[Dep]

yes and no. I was thinking in terms of a systematic error which affects batches of bolts - I understood the RR bolts were all put in with the same resin batch.

But you are right to say we shouldn't speculate pending the facts - I'll stop now, it was just a passing thought!

 

[whitelackington]

If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

 

[cap n chris]

Good question. Ask the ACB.

 

[menacer]

If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

My very hazardous guess would be "yes"...graham wrote..

I shall therefore arrange for a replacement padlock to go on the cave tomorrow morning. Anyone with a strong wish to go down the cave during
this period would then need to come to me for a key and a detailed description of the problems inherent in undertaking a trip.

Obviously I wouldnt dare presume grahams thoughts on this one,(but i neednt worry because he would correct my error within minutes of me posting this  ) ,but the way I interpreted the above statement, was, that there is slight room for manouvre with regards to access to Rhino.

Whats the ACB??

 

[Elaine]

It is the 'Amazing Christopher B'.

 

[menacer]

It is the 'Amazing Christopher B'.

: Priceless.....

Anne you're lovely  :tease:

 

[graham]

If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

My very hazardous guess would be "yes"...graham wrote..

I shall therefore arrange for a replacement padlock to go on the cave tomorrow morning. Anyone with a strong wish to go down the cave during
this period would then need to come to me for a key and a detailed description of the problems inherent in undertaking a trip.

Obviously I wouldnt dare presume grahams thoughts on this one,(but i neednt worry because he would correct my error within minutes of me posting this  ) ,but the way I interpreted the above statement, was, that there is slight room for manouvre with regards to access to Rhino.

Whats the ACB??

My thoughts on this are not particularly apposite as all decisions were made at the CCC Ltd AGM last weekend. Ask your club rep.

 

[whitelackington]

If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

My very hazardous guess would be "yes"...graham wrote..

I shall therefore arrange for a replacement padlock to go on the cave tomorrow morning. Anyone with a strong wish to go down the cave during
this period would then need to come to me for a key and a detailed description of the problems inherent in undertaking a trip.

Obviously I wouldnt dare presume grahams thoughts on this one,(but i neednt worry because he would correct my error within minutes of me posting this  ) ,but the way I interpreted the above statement, was, that there is slight room for manouvre with regards to access to Rhino.

Whats the ACB??

My thoughts on this are not particularly apposite as all decisions were made at the CCC Ltd AGM last weekend. Ask your club rep.

Rhino Rift is "The Main S.R.T. Cave on Mendip", the one most often used.
The Right Hand Route all bolted with spits is The Place on Mendip to train if you wish to go abroad and experience 8mm bolts.

When can we, the caving community be allowed to use
The Right hand route in Rhino Rift :-\

 

[Peter Burgess]

Have you asked for a key as advised by Graham?

 

[cap n chris]

The Right Hand Route should prove interesting to rig, given that there isn't an in situ deviation to avoid the major rub point on the first pitch - you may need a VERY tall person (or someone with a bit of bamboo!) to reach across and put one in.

 

[whitelackington]

We've got Treemonkey 




Apparently he has done The Berger

 

[cap n chris]

:bow: 

 

[whitelackington]

I thought "Somebody" had already given an order to close Rhino Rift,
before The Charterhouse Caving Company Limited recent a.g.m.

but I expect I will be proved incorrect. :-\

 

[graham]

I thought "Somebody" had already given an order to close Rhino Rift,
before The Charterhouse Caving Company Limited recent a.g.m.

but I expect I will be proved incorrect. :-\

As has been said more than once - you are a member of two CCC Ltd member clubs. You can discuss these matters with your club reps or you could even have come to the meeting yourself. You were on Mendip that weekend and you had been told when it was.

Alternatively you can continue to come on here and whinge and whine.

If you do you will find that those who are working at trying to resolve this situation will be less willing to come here and give updates than they have been. They don't need the hassle. I quote from Steve King's most recent email to the CSCC list:

To date over 30 man hours has been spent underground, along with a considerable amount of above ground technical discussion, record checking, etc.  All those involved are unpaid volunteers.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I thought "Somebody" had already given an order to close Rhino Rift,
before The Charterhouse Caving Company Limited recent a.g.m.

but I expect I will be proved incorrect. :-\

As has been said more than once - you are a member of two CCC Ltd member clubs. You can discuss these matters with your club reps or you could even have come to the meeting yourself. You were on Mendip that weekend and you had been told when it was.

Alternatively you can continue to come on here and whinge and whine.

If you do you will find that those who are working at trying to resolve this situation will be less willing to come here and give updates than they have been. They don't need the hassle. I quote from Steve King's most recent email to the CSCC list:

To date over 30 man hours has been spent underground, along with a considerable amount of above ground technical discussion, record checking, etc.  All those involved are unpaid volunteers.

I find that if you just ignore whingers and whiners, life becomes considerably more hassle free.