Danger - Rhinos Rift

[menacer]

... and who's going to do all this work?

There are plenty of willing volunteers on mendip who with a bit of coordination would be more than willing to be involved with this issue if it meant "access" to these caves could be return to normal......People like BenM, c**tplaces and others all who have already offered their time.....
People would genuinely rather be involved in sorting this issue rather being kept in the dark about the whole thing.....
For those unaware, the wessex alone have about 30 people turn up on a wednesday evening to go digging/caving. Im sure a great deal of them would be more than willing to divert their time to Rhino rift project if that is what is  needed, decided by the commitees who are representing this issue in the best interest of caving/cavers. (did that last sentence make sense??)

 

[cap n chris]

Perhaps you Mendip boys need some instructions......

Quote - CNCC Technical Group - Permanent Resin Bonded Anchors - Installation Guide Lines, Training, Testing and Documentation

REMOVAL OF THE ECO ANCHOR

A dust mask and goggles must be used while removing anchors

1:    Drill either side of the anchor using a 6mm bit

2:    A bar is placed through the eye of the anchor, a ball joint seperator is then driven between the bar and the substrate to its full extent. A further  ball joint separator is then driven in the opposite direction over the existing ball joint separator.

3:    The anchor is now protruding from the substrate. A crow bar is inserted through the eye of the anchor and with a levering motion the anchor is withdrawn from the substrate.

The best option may be to cut the protruding anchor and then disguise the bare metal.

End of quote.

Have you guys actually attended any anchor placement courses??

I reckon with a hand/hammer driven Spit Driver you could drill the two holes in about 1hr 30min!

If you're trying to be helpful; I'm sure people will be thankful.

If you're trying to be sarky then cave karma may kick in.

Many bolt placements (especially those in Hunters Hole) are such that removal by this method isn't possible; the stich drilling removal was done (first time in a cave, BTW!) by request so that the material could be examined. The notes state that grinding may be required as a removal method; my questions from an earlier post still stand - there are lots of foreseeable considerations about bolt removal which Hammy seems to have skirted around, making flimsy comments of no sound practical use.

The question stands: what are the present bolts to be replaced with? - here's a question for you to mull over... should those people who are working to resolve this problem furtle around trying to cobble together what remains of the UK stock or await the arrival of a new standard bolt?

 

[Hughie]

... and who's going to do all this work?

There are plenty of willing volunteers on mendip who with a bit of coordination would be more than willing to be involved with this issue if it meant "access" to these caves could be return to normal......People like BenM, c**tplaces and others all who have already offered their time.....
People would genuinely rather be involved in sorting this issue rather being kept in the dark about the whole thing.....
For those unaware, the wessex alone have about 30 people turn up on a wednesday evening to go digging/caving. Im sure a great deal of them would be more than willing to divert their time to Rhino rift project if that is what is  needed, decided by the commitees who are representing this issue in the best interest of caving/cavers. (did that last sentence make sense??)

Couldn't agree more. I'm sure the Templeton crews could also be deployed to assist. That's another 10 or so.

 

[cap n chris]

Would the Templeton crew be prepared to allow TP to become a new/alternative SRT venue for Whitelackington while he, and others, are having withdrawal symptoms? After all, Star and the new bolted routes in Thrupe surely offset, to some extent, the inability to visit HH/RR; two new(ish) sites temporarily replacing two old(er) ones.... an extra SRT venue would always be welcome round here! - it could become "Mendip's Jingling Pot".

It's great to see such a spirit of volunteer effort but the problem(s) remain of what can be done? - having thirty people to inspect a bolt or tie a label to it ain't really necessary, for instance.

 

[menacer]

Would the Templeton crew be prepared to allow TP to become a new/alternative SRT venue for Whitelackington while he, and others, are having withdrawal symptoms? After all, Star and the new bolted routes in Thrupe surely offset, to some extent, the inability to visit HH/RR; two new(ish) sites temporarily replacing two old(er) ones.... an extra SRT venue would always be welcome round here! - it could become "Mendip's Jingling Pot".

It's great to see such a spirit of volunteer effort but the problem(s) remain of what can be done? - having thirty people to inspect a bolt or tie a label to it ain't really necessary, for instance.

You guys have already identified the rogue bolts.
If for example it was decided that the rogue bolts could be replaced (by whatever stocks are left of the current p hangers)then volunteers would go down with drills etc and remove the bolts according to hammys instructions....Many of us are very capable of wielding a drill underground and using them in anger, and there is a fairly good source of adequate drills on mendip....as long as the relevant "to be removed" bolts were tagged ...cant see a problem,

That would then leave those who are certificated with the task of reinstalling them.(in the same holes if possible, if not the volunteers using the same drills could help drill them.........X marks the spot and all that jazz.....what ya reckon....

 

[menacer]

here's a question for you to mull over... should those people who are working to resolve this problem furtle around trying to cobble together what remains of the UK stock or await the arrival of a new standard bolt?

May as well use up old stocks

 

[ian.p]

but if the original problem with the anchors is due to an environmental factor in the cave then it would seem likely that placing a similar anchor in the same piece of rock would probably lead to the anchor becoming dodgy again in the near future and stocks of already scarce p bolts being depleted further

 

[menacer]

but if the original problem with the anchors is due to an environmental factor in the cave then it would seem likely that placing a similar anchor in the same piece of rock would probably lead to the anchor becoming dodgy again in the near future and stocks of already scarce p bolts being depleted further

Hey Ian, great, maybe you could suggest a supplier that would guarantee their anchors for environmental factors in rhino rift....

 

[Elaine]

I have been following this thread all the way through quite avidly. Am I being thick, but I thought that the problem was that the bolts could be wiggled in their holes. Does this mean it is the resin that is the cause of the failures rather than the bolts themselves? I'm sure that those who are dealing with the problem know whether it is the resin or the actual p bolt which is at fault, so could anyone enlighten me? Feel free to ignore me if I am too irritating!

 

[Cookie]

but if the original problem with the anchors is due to an environmental factor in the cave then it would seem likely that placing a similar anchor in the same piece of rock would probably lead to the anchor becoming dodgy again in the near future and stocks of already scarce p bolts being depleted further

Hey Ian, great, maybe you could suggest a supplier that would guarantee their anchors for environmental factors in rhino rift....

No, Ian has a point. We need to know what went wrong. Until we have the report, which should be soon, we are all just guessing*.

*That is assuming the report has the answers  :doubt:

 

[whitelackington]

If it is indeed a problem with the resin, surely the actual bolt, if not worn, could be re-used :-\

 

[Bob Mehew]

If people would like to go back and read what was said in a post on 8 April at 10.40 pm (top of page 3), you may understand why there has been no move to replace the anchors.  I extract the following bit from it

Regrettably there is a national shortage of Eco-anchors and the manufacturer's have stated that they will not produce any more!  Some of the few anchors which remain may be required for testing hypotheses to explain the cause of these failures.  The Equipment Committee was already working on a programme to select a suitable replacement.  That work continues, but is unlikely to be completed before late Summer or possibly later if the investigation on Mendip takes any length of time.  Thus the failed anchors may not be replaced for quite some while.  The BCA and the CSCC understand the frustration this will cause.

Do I need to say more? 

 

[Hammy]

I really must apologise for my indeed sarky unhelpful comments. I had just staggered home after a few and if you notice the time of the posting (1.13am!) then maybe you can accept it as a reason though not of course an excuse....!! 

 

[damian]

Do I need to say more? 

I don't think so. You and a few others are working very hard at the moment to solve a very difficult problem and I am sure almost all the contributors here recognise this. I am also sure that any comments which might come across as negative on here are simply due to frustratation that as onlookers we can't really do anything to help. We know there is a long way to go before a new bolt and resin can be "approved" to replace the DMM system and many people on here are very willing to do anything we can to help. At the same time, though, we also recognise that sometimes it's more hassle to involve lots of people than to get on with a job yourself.

So, correct me if I'm wrong here everyone, but we all appreciate the real difficulties the BCA Equipment Committee & CSCC officers are facing at the moment and, despite the odd implied unhappiness with what is happening, we all support what you are doing and recognise it is going to take a while. Furthermore, if there is anything we can do to help, we will do it. Keep up the good work and let's make sure that, for the sake of a few weeks, we do not rush head-long into a new set of bolting which may only have to be redone in a few months' time ... at considerable expense and effort.

 

[Hughie]

Would the Templeton crew be prepared to allow TP to become a new/alternative SRT venue for Whitelackington while he, and others, are having withdrawal symptoms?

Erm... no. The fixed ladders are perfectly adequate, and it's not bolted (not with BCA approved bolts, anyway!)

It's great to see such a spirit of volunteer effort but the problem(s) remain of what can be done? - having thirty people to inspect a bolt or tie a label to it ain't really necessary, for instance.

I think the offer was intended for assistance with the re-bolting, once the actual problem has been ascertained.

 

[Bob Mehew]

thank you Damian

 

[ecowaller]

To my knowledge the only suitable replacement for the ECO bolt is the Singing Rock version, the only bolts to come with individual CE certification. These bolts are I think made in the Czech Republic. They require a smaller drill bit, 16mm I think....

 

[nickwilliams]

To my knowledge the only suitable replacement for the ECO bolt is the Singing Rock version, the only bolts to come with individual CE certification. These bolts are I think made in the Czech Republic. They require a smaller drill bit, 16mm I think....

I'm interested to know on what basis you think the CE mark is relevant.

Nick.

 

[whitelackington]

If people would like to go back and read what was said in a post on 8 April at 10.40 pm (top of page 3), you may understand why there has been no move to replace the anchors.  I extract the following bit from it

Regrettably there is a national shortage of Eco-anchors and the manufacturer's have stated that they will not produce any more!  Some of the few anchors which remain may be required for testing hypotheses to explain the cause of these failures.  The Equipment Committee was already working on a programme to select a suitable replacement.  That work continues, but is unlikely to be completed before late Summer or possibly later if the investigation on Mendip takes any length of time.  Thus the failed anchors may not be replaced for quite some while.  The BCA and the CSCC understand the frustration this will cause.

Do I need to say more? 

What is the reason Bob for the manufacturer's refusal to make any more :-\

 

[graham]

What is the reason Bob for the manufacturer's refusal to make any more :-\

Why don't you offer to buy us a few thousand and find out? http://www.dmmclimbing.com/index.asp?id=1&page=Home