Danger - Rhinos Rift

[Cookie]

The Right Hand Route should prove interesting to rig, given that there isn't an in situ deviation to avoid the major rub point on the first pitch - you may need a VERY tall person (or someone with a bit of bamboo!) to reach across and put one in.

I've rigged it and I'm not very tall (Five foot seven and a half).

It was a struggle though, thank goodness for that extra half inch.

 

[cap n chris]

I find that if you just ignore whingers and whiners, life becomes considerably more hassle free.

I'm looking forward to a hassle free existence.

 

[cucc Paul]

rig a deviation off the p bolt for the re-belay on the first pitch, its worked for us.

 

[ecowaller]

Mmm.......Mmmm did I mention the loose bolts in Rhino a few months ago? No I must be mistaken.....








































/

 

[whitelackington]

If as a result of the recent "P" Bolt concerns in Rhino Rift,
it is found to be a problem with the resin,
as there are apparently very few unused "P" Bolts left
and also as there are apparently no plans for future products of these bolts.
In order to re-open Rhino Rift for s.r.t. practise quickly,
would it be expedient to re-use the actual "P" Bolts
but with good resin?

 

[whitelackington]

Ah, but there is a difference between intelligent discussion using reasoned argument, and scaremongering, not that I am accusing anyone of that, but on a national respected forum, one should be aware of the consequences of what one posts.

I think the bolt testing question was an entirely sensible question, rather than scaremongering. I also think Cap'n Chris provided a sensible answer of why testing is unlikely to have caused anchor failure ( :read: WL).

As for comparability of tests, a good test of something that you intend to have continuing to serve its original purpose should not significantly alter the state of the item being tested. If it does then the item was either faulty or the test was badly designed. Testing something to destruction is not the same thing.

That was my point...

If we assume that the cave environment did not appreciably deteriorate in the
two months between the bolts being tested in Rhino Rift and them being re-tested,
(we have been told it is not the testing or testers causing the trouble,)
then it must be either faulty bolts
or faulty glue.

Very unlikely that the bolts could have deteriorated so much to have gone
from pass to fail in two months.

So that leaves the glue.

Most glues work on contact, once you have broken the bond,
the adhesive quality is lost.

In my very humble oppinion it is the testing and re-testing of the hangers that is effectively causing the bond to break. :-\

 

[graham]

And in my even humbler opinion you should wait until the report of the extremely extensive and intensive investigation is finished and is issued. Any uninformed speculation prior to that is neither helpful nor informative.

 

[Peter Burgess]

And in my even humbler opinion you should wait until the report of the extremely extensive and intensive investigation is finished and is issued. Any uninformed speculation prior to that is neither helpful nor informative.

You beat me too it. We are allowed to swear now, BTW. 

 

[mak]

Whilst I appreciate that this is reliant on the availability of volunteers, does anyone have an estimate of when the results of the testing are expected?

Once results are back is there any idea of how long it might take to replace the failed hangers?

i.e. is there an estimated "re-opening" date for the currently closed caves?

 

[cap n chris]

Graham, have you done a count of the amount of email traffic, and the number of person hours this topic has involved? I imagine people might be surprised. At the last count I've got 34 emails on it.

Cor! - that was then.

Present tally is now 247.

 

[menacer]

WOW 247 emails from cavers.....and im sure they were all expressing they're absolute delight at having various caves closed on Mendip, and none of those 247 would possibly be horrified or confused that there appears to be no other alternative than to close the cave.
The question was being asked last wednesday at the wessex, why couldnt the rogue hangers be made temporarily unavailable with Jointing plates and bolts, thus making it impossible to put a krab or maillon onto it.
There are enough volunteers out there who would undertake this task (including myself) if it could be seen as a  a sensible solution without having to close the caves....
I would be a sad day to think this method couldnt be adopted because the cscc feels cavers may subsequently remove these temporary measures...

 

[cap n chris]

I was under the impression that no caves are actually closed; RR is under a state of restricted access via CCC Ltd., GB remains open, PGS has a different padlock fitted with keys held by local (WCC!) caver(s), not CSCC!, access to HH is at the discretion of the landowner (although cavers should not use the in situ hangers so effectively it's a no-can-do trip at the mo) and Thrupe is open.

 

[menacer]

I was under the impression that no caves are actually closed; RR is under a state of restricted access via CCC Ltd.,

My Apologies. So we can go for trips down rhino then ???

Why is it ok to restrict access on some, alter access on others, and not change access at all for others....
The discrepancies are somewhat confusing.

 

[menacer]

i.e. is there an estimated "re-opening" date for the currently closed caves?

:chair: Naughty Mak, the caves arnt closed, access has been meerly ........altered......for a (the) few........but im sure it must be for a very good reason.......

 

[Cookie]

I was under the impression that no caves are actually closed; RR is under a state of restricted access via CCC Ltd., GB remains open, PGS has a different padlock fitted with keys held by local (WCC!) caver(s), not CSCC!, access to HH is at the discretion of the landowner (although cavers should not use the in situ hangers so effectively it's a no-can-do trip at the mo) and Thrupe is open.

Chris, these are weasel words. To the best of my knowledge, to all intents and purposes Rhino, Hunters and Priddy Green Sink are shut to sporting trips.

If the cave has to be shut on the grounds of safety, changing the access procedure doesn't make the cave any safer. The logic is unsustainable. If it is unsafe for one group it is just as unsafe for the next group whether they have discovered and followed the new access procedure or not. 

If sporting groups are being allowed in by following the procedure you've outlined it should either be stopped or the caves should be re-opened. Anything else is hypocritical.

Please lets call a spade a spade.

 

[cap n chris]

Only repeating the impression I got from reading the words elsewhere*. I do not know of any sporting trip(s) to RR, HH, or PGS.

* They're not my words!

 

[cap n chris]

any idea of how long it might take to replace the failed hangers?

Good question.

What with?

N.B. It took me about three hours of drilling and four battery packs (having to exit the cave to recharge both batteries and then returning with them) to extract ONE bolt in RR, with the assistance of another person (i.e. over 10 man hours in total, plus travelling etc. oh, plus another subsequent trip to remediate the hole left behind). Therefore I'd say it's a safe bet that drilling out failed bolts ain't gonna happen. So... angle grind them off? .... er,... problems such as providing power, cabling, batteries(?), setting fire to yourself, going deaf, burning the rope(s), gas/dust/fumes etc.. (stainless gives off a great smell when grinded) - is the use of DRT sufficient or are safety chains needed? - how do you see WTF you're doing with a mask/eye protection? - what about gloves?- what about ear protection? - how do you communicate/see/breathe? - how do you place the operator? - once ground off, how do you place the operator to install new bolts? - does grinding generate swarf/sharp metal flakes? - are they to be collected or cleared up? - are they to be left in the cave? - how do you collect such stuff? - is it a danger to people if it's just left where it falls? - who is "designing" the new bolting topo/layout? - how are these people to visit the site to give their expert opinion(s)? - who is organising this? - when will it happen? - who picks up the tab for travelling/accommodation expenses? - what bolt(s) are available? - how are they to be installed? - is there an accepted/proven installation procedure for doing it? - how long does it take to approve a new bolt, installation method and subsequent testing regime? - la-la-la-di-fucking-fiasco-la.

I'm resigning in four weeks.


The expression "Never again" springs to mind when I see this picture

 

[emgee]

any idea of how long it might take to replace the failed hangers?

Good question.

What with?

Even better question.

 

[cap n chris]

... and who's going to do all this work?

 

[Hammy]

Perhaps you Mendip boys need some instructions......

Quote - CNCC Technical Group - Permanent Resin Bonded Anchors - Installation Guide Lines, Training, Testing and Documentation

REMOVAL OF THE ECO ANCHOR

A dust mask and goggles must be used while removing anchors

1:    Drill either side of the anchor using a 6mm bit

2:    A bar is placed through the eye of the anchor, a ball joint seperator is then driven between the bar and the substrate to its full extent. A further  ball joint separator is then driven in the opposite direction over the existing ball joint separator.

3:    The anchor is now protruding from the substrate. A crow bar is inserted through the eye of the anchor and with a levering motion the anchor is withdrawn from the substrate.

The best option may be to cut the protruding anchor and then disguise the bare metal.

End of quote.

Have you guys actually attended any anchor placement courses??

I reckon with a hand/hammer driven Spit Driver you could drill the two holes in about 1hr 30min!