Dead Scouts

[cap n chris]

Is there a list anywhere of Scouting deaths?

 

[diggerdog adam]

Why are you so intreasted? Sick !

 

[cap n chris]

Because when meeting a group of "I hope they know what they're doing `cos they don't look like they do" cavers, they're frequently Scouts. I imagine their safety record is actually very good but if there's a list of squashed Scouts (Eastwater Cavern "woggle press" springs to mind) I'd like to read it.

 

[dunc]

Have you looked at British Cave Rescue website - only lists from 1995 - lists all incidents but usually mentions if the group was a scout one or not.. Not exactly the list you're looking for and it involves work looking through the lists but its a start..

 

[diggerdog adam]

Just for the record, The regulations are as tight as they could be regaurding taking scouts underground. I am sure (and are aware of 1) incidents have happerned over the years these are are ways tragic but i would imagine few and far between.

I sometimes worry alot more about uni groups !

 

[SamT]

I sometimes worry alot more about uni groups !

I have to agree with that!

I was in scouts and did quite a lot of caving - Long Churn - Bar Pot - Giants Round trip - P8. Never any bother - but we were in good hands.

I know of a scouting death but there is nothing anyone could have done as far as Im aware.

I dont thing a complete list of Caving Accidents and rescues would be especially squewed towards scouts though.

 

[cap n chris]

I take it that Diggerdog Adam is/was a Scout judging by his defensive stance. BTW I am not getting at Scouts; it's a line of enquiry.

The assertion that "The regulations are as tight as they could be regaurding taking scouts underground" is questionable; Scout leaders attend NCA cave leader training courses but many don't undergo the national assessment, side stepping it by taking a Form C (i.e. Scouting in-house) assessment instead (the question is: why would an organisation want to go to all the bother of duplicating a national scheme? - if the NCA scheme exists, why not just get your aspirant leaders to complete it and then lead groups?).

I suspect a stick may have been poked into a nest of wasps.

 

[Cave_Troll]

I'd have to dissagree about _most_ University caving.
they have to jump through so many hoops to satisfy their Student's unions that they are normally very good.
I've heard of multiple groups down the same cave type trips, where "old farts" have made some disdanefull comments about "university cavers" and then proceded to rig stuff like ladders off one anchor with no lifelines.
this kind of attitude can mostly be laughed of but it's not the most freindly stuff in the world.
If you really want to be worried about a group , why not ask the question "which is the only organisation to have an entire group named after them in the Mountain Rescue Statistics"



having said that ...

------ Joke ------
Q : What do you call an army cadet down cave?
A : Rescue fodder
Q: What do you call a scout down a cave?
A : Cat food

 

[George North]

"I'd have to dissagree about _most_ University caving.
they have to jump through so many hoops to satisfy their Student's unions that they are normally very good."

Absolutely, I suspect the days of incompetent university clubs are now numbered.

I've heard of multiple groups down the same cave type trips, where "old farts" have made some disdanefull comments about "university cavers" and then proceded to rig stuff like ladders off one anchor with no lifelines.
this kind of attitude can mostly be laughed of but it's not the most freindly stuff in the world.

I've experienced this quite a few times. I think they all suffer from inferiority complexes.

If you really want to be worried about a group , why not ask the question "which is the only organisation to have an entire group named after them in the Mountain Rescue Statistics"

Bloody ramblers
:wink:

 

[Dave H]

The assertion that "The regulations are as tight as they could be regaurding taking scouts underground" is questionable; Scout leaders attend NCA cave leader training courses but many don't undergo the national assessment, side stepping it by taking a Form C (i.e. Scouting in-house) assessment instead (the question is: why would an organisation want to go to all the bother of duplicating a national scheme? - if the NCA scheme exists, why not just get your aspirant leaders to complete it and then lead groups?).

Simple! Cave Leader Training costs loads of dosh!!!:evil:

I've caved for 24 years and trained cavers within universities and on courses (until CLA came along) for nearly as long. I don't have the spare cash, time or inclination to get a piece of paper to say that. Form C is about caving ability and experience (like CLA) but it didn't cost me an arm and leg to get. Now I can continue to enjoy myself taking beginers, and training the more experienced.


[RANT]
When CLA first started I was asked by a training company I worked for to 'nurse maid' a couple of young leaders who had just received their certificates (i.e. were now more qualified than me!), whilst they took a group on the Giants round trip. They did nothing to enthuse the group about the trip, the formations they were seeing, or the activity of caving. They then proceeded to get lost on three occassions, before I took over the leading of the trip.
When I challenged a Director of the company later, I was told "but you must understand that we have to be seen to employ qualified instructors"
[/RANT]

 

[mudmonkey]

Agree with the Troll about Uni clubs...

And about the Scouts. I held a form Cave for a while a number of years ago(7 I think?).

This bit of paper allowed me to take Scouts into any cave in Burrington Coombe. Now, there are lots of good novice sites there - but also some pretty unpleasant places! But yet I couldn't use any other good quality, horizontal, novice caves - although suitable they weren't in Burrington. I queried this and was told that it was the standard first "form cave" they issued for Mendip, and that leaders were expected to show judgement about sites.

Why this judgement can't extend to using better sites elsewhere in the region, but can extend to pitches, desperate squeezes and loose rocks is still beyond me - anyone out there know if they've sorted the system out yet??

 

[Cave_Troll]

the answer to my question by the way is "duke of edinburgh"

 

[dunc]

I was in scouts and did quite a lot of caving - Long Churn - Bar Pot - Giants Round trip - P8. Never any bother - but we were in good hands.

Why did I never get taken caving when I was in Scouts?? All those years I've missed out on

 

[dunc]

I dont thing a complete list of Caving Accidents and rescues would be especially squewed towards scouts though

Like I said its not what he was looking for but its a start and if a scout group was involved it does say so..

From the BCRC site the analysis pdf shows a breakdown over a 10 year period of type of casualty - unknown, aff' club, scouts, schools, etc..
That gives you an idea of how many general incidents occured over the years - which is not many for scouts.. The problem with that and any other list you might find is that it won't tell you how many trips were undertaken so a comparison can't be made against trips/incidents.

 

[Dave H]

Why this judgement can't extend to using better sites elsewhere in the region, but can extend to pitches, desperate squeezes and loose rocks is still beyond me - anyone out there know if they've sorted the system out yet??

I think the control is down at a regional level and seems to be a bit patchy from what you say.
To paraphrase my form "any cave I am farmiliar with" - basically anywhere I feel is suitable in the weather conditions, and with the particular group.

Certainly within the county I help (not Northants Scouts as they "don't do caving") there are various levels of assessment. Along the informal lines of : seconder without pitches, leader without pitches and with detailed knowledge, seconder with small pitches or water, leader with small pitches or water and with detailed knowledge, leader any cave with detailed knowledge, leader any cave you are farmiliar with.
And there are regular training weekends attended by all the leaders within the county.

I have been told that the form C accreditation is going to be standardised across the country.

 

[Cavegod]

Why did I never get taken caving when I was in Scouts?? All those years I've missed out on

you where in the scouts??? :roll: you will have to wear your woggle saturday!!

 

[tiggs]

[RANT]
When CLA first started I was asked by a training company I worked for to 'nurse maid' a couple of young leaders who had just received their certificates (i.e. were now more qualified than me!), whilst they took a group on the Giants round trip. They did nothing to enthuse the group about the trip, the formations they were seeing, or the activity of caving. They then proceeded to get lost on three occassions, before I took over the leading of the trip.
When I challenged a Director of the company later, I was told "but you must understand that we have to be seen to employ qualified instructors"
[/RANT]

I find that really worrying, that people with "qualifications" STILL dont have a clue, and that people with qualifications are deemed to be preferable to those who have experience but no certificate, surely someone who has experience, and a sensible attitude has to be more valuable down a cave than someone who has a certificate but no sense. If i let my three kids down a cave i would expect the person with them had enough experience and knowledge of caving to get them out safely, certificate or no certificate.

 

[tiggs]

that should of read "some people with qualifications" sorry !! no offence to those of you with qualifications!

 

[tiggs]

Why did I never get taken caving when I was in Scouts?? All those years I've missed out on

Perhaps you should sue, Dunc?

 

[dunc]

:tom: