Dead Scouts

[tiggs]

Hope that tomato aint carcenogenic Mr J! :wink:

 

[dunc]

Whilst my thrown product may contain small traces of an illegal substance and be of no risk to immediate health it would be wise not to eat it. :?

 

[tiggs]

bit like chilli, crisps and ready meals from various big supermarkets then eh

 

[caverholic]

Since I have been caving with Uni clubs and Scouts my safety has improved considerably. (since I've bee caving with Rob it has gone to pot)

Our scout team has strict risk assessment forms for all the caves they undertake and all form C holder's progress through a training scheme that progresses you to a competent standard. The form C are assessed in levels according to the cave grading system which is a bit vague but you can do any cave up to that grad which you are aware of. At the end of the day because the assessor has known you for along time, they know of your knowledge and can be certain that you are a reasonable person who won't take unnecessary.
The LCL scheme doesn't have assessors who know students so they can't make a judgement on their personality.

It would be a great shame if bureaucracy took over and ended caving within scouting which is a huge source of cavers today.

 

[Stu]

[RANT]
When CLA first started I was asked by a training company I worked for to 'nurse maid' a couple of young leaders who had just received their certificates (i.e. were now more qualified than me!), whilst they took a group on the Giants round trip. They did nothing to enthuse the group about the trip, the formations they were seeing, or the activity of caving. They then proceeded to get lost on three occassions, before I took over the leading of the trip.
When I challenged a Director of the company later, I was told "but you must understand that we have to be seen to employ qualified instructors"
[/RANT]

I find that really worrying, that people with "qualifications" STILL dont have a clue, and that people with qualifications are deemed to be preferable to those who have experience but no certificate, surely someone who has experience, and a sensible attitude has to be more valuable down a cave than someone who has a certificate but no sense. If i let my three kids down a cave i would expect the person with them had enough experience and knowledge of caving to get them out safely, certificate or no certificate.

CLA (sic) qualification started out in the early 80's so this "problem" may not be a problem now. Since cave leaders nowadays at that level are "local leaders" and must know the cave inside out.

Qualifications are not legally necessary to lead even paying groups. Qualification certificates are an easier way for an employer to "guage competency" i.e. someone else - the assessor, has done the hard work for them. It's still perfectly possible for people with vast amounts of quality experience (and remeber longevity isn't a guarantee of best practice) to take groups out...but if they are that interested then much less hassle to get qualified. NCA ran grant schemes for non professional instructors I believe.

Sorry, you hit a nerve.

 

[diggerdog adam]

Caver holic,
It sounds like you have a very good set up within your district, but the main prob that i could see happerning and i say "Could" is lets say that on your form C your have a slection of named caves and or up to grade 3 caves for example. You go away on camp or visit a different area with a grade 3 cave in therory you would be ok to under take the trip with out ever been in the cave before (And before you rant) Realisticly this shouldnt happen in my veiw, and im sure neaver does but the loopol is there!
Ive herd this week that there is going to be a complete overhall of caving restricments/recondmations for scouts and caving i was led to belive that they are looking to now include srt on named caves from what i have heard on the wires should be in place within the next 12 months

Reading between the lines i think that there trying to make sure that leaders that cave once in a blue moon but still hold a form C do so with out taking any unnessercary risks

Good post though and i would agree with"It would be a great shame if bureaucracy took over and ended caving within scouting which is a huge source of cavers today"

 

[Dave H]

Qualifications are not legally necessary to lead even paying groups.

Quite so, but the problems for Outdoor Persuit companies is not their knowing if an instructor is good - the piece of paper is required by the insurance companies. And here we get back to the knub of half of the problems in modern day life

 

[Dave H]

Ive herd this week that there is going to be a complete overhall of caving restricments/recondmations for scouts

I'll be taking Scouts underground this weekend. They are being brought along by someone really in the know when it comes to Scout caving. I'll report back what I learn next week.

BTW. Our Scout Caving Team only look after the Scouts whilst participating in the caving activity (from when they arrive at the cave to when we deliver them back to their leaders afterwards) the rest of the weekend their leaders have to take responsibility for them. We find that this is much the easiest way of doing it.

 

[biffa]

Well if you feel it would've been good to have been taken caving by your scout group, or your worried about the compotences of scout groups you meet underground why not volunteer as a district caving instructor? Doesn't take much time, improves the image of caving and should let you sit in the pub after feeling you've done something really good

 

[cap n chris]

good point

 

[Stu]

Quite so, but the problems for Outdoor Persuit companies is not their knowing if an instructor is good - the piece of paper is required by the insurance companies. And here we get back to the knub of half of the problems in modern day life

Again, technically, not true but we'll start splitting hairs soon. Again, an experienced up to date caver could work for an organisation and be insured through them, IF that organisation took the time to do the work that an assessor does.

The whole certificate/qualification barring access for young people to outdoor pursuits is a bit of a red herring. If people in the schools/youth clubs have the impetus to do activities with the kids, then there are plenty of venues that will safely and properly take them on. Lots of centres are busy, but it will be one teacher who has an interest that will carry the whole thing forward. Until Outdoor Ed is on the National Curric. then it'll never happen. This is why I applaud organisations like the Scouts who will actually go out and do stuff often against a lot of stereotypical b**ls**t. I have no affiliation with scouts bar having been a member some 20+ years ago.

 

[Stu]

See...see what I did there!!? I disclaimed!!! a sign of the times eh?

 

[dunc]

This is why I applaud organisations like the Scouts who will actually go out and do stuff often against a lot of stereotypical b**ls**t.

Well said!

Lots of centres are busy, but it will be one teacher who has an interest that will carry the whole thing forward. Until Outdoor Ed is on the National Curric. then it'll never happen.

As far as a lot of places are concerned they are scared of being sued for any (even minor) accidents.. We all know Outdoor Ed. is good and beneficial for kids - it even says so in various reports, as the recent one below:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4282959.stm

Maybe, just maybe, things will improve!

I disclaimed!!! a sign of the times eh?

:tom:

 

[kay]

Until Outdoor Ed is on the National Curric. then it'll never happen.

Think we've just gone through a Golden Age. There wasn't any of this outdoor stuff when I were a lass. Not at school, anyway. Had to be in the scouts. And that wasn't for girsl - we got taught flower arrangng and make up instead.

I'm not saying you couldn't get involved, if you knew how to go about it. It's just that for most of us the opportunty wasn't presented.

 

[Dave H]

And that wasn't for girsl

Girls can of course now join the Scouts.

I was leading Scouts over the weekend, with a number of other very experienced leaders. We are very much split into two groups - those that can put up with the politics of Scouts (and lead troops) and those of us who can't (and just take Scouts caving)! The politics guys have a strong feeling from the meetings they have been to that CLC certification is going to be made a requirement of getting the form C in the future.

 

[Stu]

And that wasn't for girsl

Girls can of course now join the Scouts.

I was leading Scouts over the weekend, with a number of other very experienced leaders. We are very much split into two groups - those that can put up with the politics of Scouts (and lead troops) and those of us who can't (and just take Scouts caving)! The politics guys have a strong feeling from the meetings they have been to that CLC certification is going to be made a requirement of getting the form C in the future.

Do you mean Local Cave Leader or Cave Instructor Certificate? I ask as there is a big deal of difference in terms of cost and commitment.

 

[Dave H]

The suggestion was that LCL may be required for all form C holders and CIC for the County/Regional assessors.

I don't really see that the assessor will need CIC to know if an LCL holder is suitable for a form C, as they will have already been assessed in order to get the LCL!

As we take Scouts caving in many regions, we thought a compromise would be to get one leader with an LCL for each region and just make sure that they lead that trip.

I just hope that everything doesn't get too bureaucratic or expensive. But I do feel that the Form C should have some kind of standardisation across the country.

I'm sure that this won't get sorted out for many years, and we'll all have a chance to discuss it when the suggestions become more firm as proposals.