Decline in Caver Numbers

[Bob G]

yes its probbly true that many of us do live more sedimentry lifes then most young people in the past              

I think that's just muddying the waters..

 

[ian.p]

I don't know wot planet you are on youngster
more like 50 average age, if not more but we often take peoples children, especially if we are going diging as they fit through thin rifts.

does rather prove my point thogh
geting people who are desendants of cavers to go caving isnt that dificult because parents can take them caving i started caving ages ago why? becuase my dad took me the problem caving is having isnt recruiting cavers own children its geting people who havent got any relatives who are cavers to go caving 

 

[darkplaces]

ian.p makes some very valid points about physically getting to caves and clubs.

 

[Dep]

As everyone else is going completely off thread (as usual)
I will chuck my ten peneth in.
I saw some of the results of a survey done recently about Primary school kids. All I can say is I was shocked. I am not going to quote but the number of these kids who could not eat properly with a knife and fork was amazing. ( They are just used to using  fingers Mc donalds etc. What chance does society have when the rudiments of life/manners are ignored at this early stage.  My stance is this Parents get a grip or beware the results.

Quite agree - it disgusts me.
Look at TV commercials and how many show kids with an overhand fist grip on their spoon shovelling crappy food into their mouths like coal into a furnace. Yeuch.
I was brought up strictly to eat nicely, and I am making bloody sure my kids do the same.

 

[kay]

As everyone else is going completely off thread (as usual)
I will chuck my ten peneth in.
I saw some of the results of a survey done recently about Primary school kids. All I can say is I was shocked. I am not going to quote but the number of these kids who could not eat properly with a knife and fork was amazing. ( They are just used to using  fingers Mc donalds etc. What chance does society have when the rudiments of life/manners are ignored at this early stage.  My stance is this Parents get a grip or beware the results.

Of all the behavioural problems of youngsters today, I'm not sure that failure to eat with a knife and fork is the one I would have singled out as the greatest threat to society as we know it

 

[cap n chris]

During the course of a typical year I get to meet multiple hundreds (if not in excess of 1,000) of young people from all walks of life; yes, some are pretty unpleasant but I'd say that by comparison with the little shits I was at school with, generally today's youth are considerably BETTER than 20 or 30 years ago. The "problem" is the media pin-pointing the hoodies and giving them unbalanced non-comparative air time thereby resulting in a skewed perception of their numbers and the fact that, under the surface, they're not hard or dangerous - they're actually pretty sad, poor and lonely.... but foul-mouthed. My 2p.

 

[Hughie]

As everyone else is going completely off thread (as usual)
I will chuck my ten peneth in.
I saw some of the results of a survey done recently about Primary school kids. All I can say is I was shocked. I am not going to quote but the number of these kids who could not eat properly with a knife and fork was amazing. ( They are just used to using  fingers Mc donalds etc. What chance does society have when the rudiments of life/manners are ignored at this early stage.  My stance is this Parents get a grip or beware the results.

Of all the behavioural problems of youngsters today, I'm not sure that failure to eat with a knife and fork is the one I would have singled out as the greatest threat to society as we know it

Perhaps not, but it's a good indication of lack of discipline and poor parenting skills at a very early age.

 

[whitelackington]

As everyone else is going completely off thread (as usual)
I will chuck my ten peneth in.
I saw some of the results of a survey done recently about Primary school kids. All I can say is I was shocked. I am not going to quote but the number of these kids who could not eat properly with a knife and fork was amazing. ( They are just used to using  fingers Mc donalds etc. What chance does society have when the rudiments of life/manners are ignored at this early stage.  My stance is this Parents get a grip or beware the results.

Of all the behavioural problems of youngsters today, I'm not sure that failure to eat with a knife and fork is the one I would have singled out as the greatest threat to society as we know it

Perhaps not, but it's a good indication of lack of discipline and poor parenting skills at a very early age.

Exactly,
but more to the point, if the "Little Darlings" can't understand the basics of operating a knife & fork,
how are they ever going to learn how to do Hilti Capping,
or Single Rope Techniqe
or operation of a dumper, nail bar but you get my drift.

 

[Dep]

During the course of a typical year I get to meet multiple hundreds (if not in excess of 1,000) of young people from all walks of life; yes, some are pretty unpleasant but I'd say that by comparison with the little shits I was at school with, generally today's youth are considerably BETTER than 20 or 30 years ago. The "problem" is the media pin-pointing the hoodies and giving them unbalanced non-comparative air time thereby resulting in a skewed perception of their numbers and the fact that, under the surface, they're not hard or dangerous - they're actually pretty sad, poor and lonely.... but foul-mouthed. My 2p.

True by and large - but an example of the widening gulf between the new classes of society - decent people who are worth having in society and those who quite frankly are not.

What you say is correct, but the decent people go unnoticed (as they should) whereas the dubious elements of society ae much more 'in your face' and therefore are the ones to worry about. Where I live this is becoming a major issue with some areas basically no-go areas at night unless you want to be subject to verbal abuse or worse.
I grew up on a council estate and whilst there were a few people who were trouble they were few and far between and their effects were diluted by the decent people around. This is no longer the case.

This is not a knee-jerk reaction but my personal first-hand experience.

 

[ian.p]

the Hodie steriotype is an unhelpfull one the media has scared a lot of people especialy old people into thinking anyone  in a hodie is liable to mug them. a friend of mine told me a woodcraft folk camp had been complained about becuase there were all thease youthes walking round in sinister black hodies never mind the fact that most of thease sinister hodies had the words"education for social change" writen in big white leters on the front of them.
there have been places which you wouldnt go into unless you wanted a fight since the victorian era there are always going to be dodgy spots around the place i chalenge any of you to come bye an FSC camp and still say todays youth is going to hell in a hand cart.

 

[graham]

What's a "hodie"?  :doubt:

 

[stealths son]

isn't that supposed to be hoodie? (a sweatshirt with a hood)

 

[graham]

Yes, I imagine it is. I was simply making a (none too) subtle comment about the standard of written English.

 

[Londoncaver]

I'm not sure the "young people ain't what they were in my day" riff is terribly helpful - I remember hearing many variations on it from teachers / social commentators / the Daily Mail etc while growing up in the 1970s and 1980s. For hoodies read punks / mods / teddy boys...and the present generation certainly didn't invent so-called binge drinking, petty crime or bad behavior. The disgraceful decline in modern youth has been a  complaint of the older generation since Shakespeare was a lad (see the Winter's Tale, Act III, Scene III). The only generations that ever got fair credit from their elders had to fight two world wars.

 

[cap n chris]

Good points.

 

[kay]

I The disgraceful decline in modern youth has been a  complaint of the older generation since Shakespeare was a lad (see the Winter's Tale, Act III, Scene III).

A lot longer than that. I recently read a rant 'youth of today don't respect their parents, they don't want to do anything, just hang around talking to their friends' etc, etc ... it was a translation from the ancient greek.

 

[kay]

As everyone else is going completely off thread (as usual)
I will chuck my ten peneth in.
I saw some of the results of a survey done recently about Primary school kids. All I can say is I was shocked. I am not going to quote but the number of these kids who could not eat properly with a knife and fork was amazing. ( They are just used to using  fingers Mc donalds etc. What chance does society have when the rudiments of life/manners are ignored at this early stage.  My stance is this Parents get a grip or beware the results.

Of all the behavioural problems of youngsters today, I'm not sure that failure to eat with a knife and fork is the one I would have singled out as the greatest threat to society as we know it

Perhaps not, but it's a good indication of lack of discipline and poor parenting skills at a very early age.

OK, I'll buy that.

Though I'm aware my kids fall far below my mother's standards in some areas, but they're damned nice kids, and I'm proud of them

 

[darkplaces]

...but they're damned nice kids, and I'm proud of them.

I am sure they are I don't want to start a fight with you but a lot of parents say that totally unaware they have the scurge sum of the earth who abuse others and parents would not have a clue. Cant comment on yours don't think I met em.

....but the decent people go unnoticed (as they should)...

But why?
I think its easy for the kid who is trying his her best but goes un-noticed so gives up. I don't actually think kids should be expected to be good because by very definition of being a kid they are still learning how our rather made up society works. So I say promote and encourage good and just as much crack down on bad. Its clear and easy, even animals can learn that way.

 

[Dep]

....but the decent people go unnoticed (as they should)...

But why?
I think its easy for the kid who is trying his her best but goes un-noticed so gives up. I don't actually think kids should be expected to be good because by very definition of being a kid they are still learning how our rather made up society works. So I say promote and encourage good and just as much crack down on bad. Its clear and easy, even animals can learn that way.

Yes, I agree with your point about rewarding good behaviour and punishing bad in kids (I have two)
But my point about going un-noticed referred to adults. Perhaps it is a reflection of my own persona; If I have something to say I say it and expect to be listened to (or given a sensible resopnse at least) But when I have nothing to say I like to remain quiet and invisible. When I go out and about I don't like to be seen or noticed - unless I have a specific reason to want to be - which isn't often.
It's a bit like the 'take nothing but pictures leave only footprints' ethic of caving, I try to apply that in my lfe in general.
'Good' people are not usually conspicuous (except for good reasons), frequently in life the most obvious people are the arseholes!

 

[Peter Burgess]

What's a "hodie"? 

It's Latin for "toady"