Decline in caving numbers

[TheBitterEnd]

Yes they do, however I suspect that the anecdotal claims that there are fewer cavers make comparisons with the 70's and 80's rather than the last decade.

 

[bograt]

It'd be interesting plotting those figures against caves or cave passage discovered over the same period, to see if the "more caves" theory holds up, any students looking for a thesis?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

I do get he impression nowadays that there is less caving than 45 years ago when we had quite a few big polytechnic and uni clubs. My formative years were spent caving with Portsmouth Poly. though I wasn't a student. Sort of adopted really. Often big groups down at the Cerberus cottage or away in Wales, Yorks and Derbyshire. I guess there is so much else for younger folk to do now. Back then caving appealed as it was the cheapest sport available. Maybe after that era things quietened down a bit and caving became more "technical " and main stream. I get the impression that the big systems don't get as many visits as they used to. Caves I am involved with like Shatter, Withyhill and even Reservoir are hardly oversubscribed.  Most of the Mendip diggers are over 40. Whether that's due to a better fitness level with the older generation or a reflection of available leisure time I dont know. Maybe the Descent readership figures could tell a tale though that would not infer how many readers were actually active. ( Say caving at least once a month ). The odd thing is I am actually underground more now in my 60's than I ever was before. That partly due to more leisure time and the fact that I had to give up mixed gas diving.

 

[Alex]

Those figures could also indicate that there are more official cavers, not the actual number of people caving.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Some interesting thoughts there Old Ruminator. I too was wondering if the "professionalization" of caving as a sport left less room for those who were more interested in beer and big breakfasts (like me  ) than all that nasty 'orrible caving. The days of "going to have a look" at some cave or another as penance between double breakfast and beans and a heavy session in the pub seem long gone.

Also, if my own experience is anywhere near typical, I think keeping students caving in the first few years after graduation is a forlorn hope. I suspect that however much people liked caving as students the vast majority prioritize getting the right job over anything else. Often this means a move to another part of the country (typically the South East) and all kinds of over stuff takes over. But they may take it up again later in life when there is more free time and may be have the option to move closer to a caving area.

 

[skippy]

Hmm..I was mulling this over the other week and to be honest I'm not sure if this is relavent.

I started caving in the mid eighties and was brought up in Stockport.Although not a million miles from the Peaks, Stockport boasted 5 caving clubs(it had to have something I suppose).
Stockport Cave Group(SCG) met in the Castlewood in the Town Centre.
Derbyshire Caving Club(DCC) met in the Bull on Hillgate.
Rubber Duck met in the Rifle Volunteer
Hyperion CC met at Poynton working mens club(I think)
Disley Underground(DUG) met at the Swan at New Mills.

These clubs were all active and supported many members. I also recall having to queue for breakfast outside either Bernies or the Fountain cafe ...Then queue to park in Kingsdale...then queue to descend one of the kingsdale classics.

I also if I told someone I caved back in the eighties a fair percentage of folk displayed some kind of interest in having a go....These days I'm usually met with adject horror.

 

[skippy]

Rubber Duck and DCC are still active clubs.

 

[Bottlebank]

Rubber Duck and DCC are still active clubs.

The DCC may be a a good example of some of the changes. In the early nineties we had probably slightly fewer members than now, but those we had were far more active, in the caving world at least. We could field a couple of strong digging teams and a cast of thousands SRT trip - on the same day!

Whatever the figures say my own experience on the ground matches that of quite a few others, in practice the cafe's, pubs, parking spots and caves seem much quieter now than then, although I get the feeling the downward trend may have reversed in the last ten years, and we are perhaps slowly seeing more activity - quite possibly as a consequence of the net, facebook etc.

 

[Badlad]

If there is a decline in active caver numbers and our caves see less visitors than in previous years, isn't that a good thing?

Many of the arguments put forward on this forum to support restrictive cave access systems cite reducing the number of visitors in order to conserve the caves. 

Surely cavers cannot support restricting access to caves and also support encouraging more people to take up the sport.  It's a contradiction - those new cavers are going to have to go caving somewhere!

 

[Bottlebank]

Surely cavers cannot support restricting access to caves and also support encouraging more people to take up the sport.

I wouldn't put money on that if I were you

Besides, we need young cavers to carry the heavy stuff?

 

[David Rose]

Old Ruminator, your Reservoir team mostly are retired - which does kind of make it easier to devote every Tuesday to digging!

Anecdotal evidence: last Saturday I had a trip down Easegill. I got the absolute last available parking space at Bull Pot Farm, just on the corner of the road. Yesterday there were no spaces at all in the top parking area on Leck Fell. There were at least three parties (including my own - with permit!) down Notts 2.

 

[paul]

Old Ruminator, your Reservoir team mostly are retired - which does kind of make it easier to devote every Tuesday to digging!

Anecdotal evidence: last Saturday I had a trip down Easegill. I got the absolute last available parking space at Bull Pot Farm, just on the corner of the road. Yesterday there were no spaces at all in the top parking area on Leck Fell. There were at least three parties (including my own - with permit!) down Notts 2.

Also anectdotal evidence, but not out of the ordinary: August Bank Holiday we stayed at a Dales caving club hut and there were only 5 others besides ourselves (there were a total of four of us altogether staying there 2 or 3 weeks previously). On both occasions, we had Bernies to ourselves for breakfast on Saturday and Sunday morning with maybe another table occupied. Same after caving when returning for chip butties later in the late afternoon. We caved in Tataham Wife Hole on Saturday, Hagg Gill Pot on Sunday, and Susnset Hole on Monday so didn't have a problem with car parking as the usual parking spots aren't that busy anyway. So, of course one particular weekend at one location, numbers can vary quite a lot.

But when compared to the mid 70s (when I started caving while at school) and the 80s, there are definitely less cavers around.

 

[bograt]

Hmm, Bernies empty for breakfasts on a Bank Holiday weekend, - That is SERIOUS.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Maybe the demographics have changed. It is true to say most of the Reservoir team are retired but all have been caving long term. I dont think many folk over 50 would take up caving from scratch. When I was diving we started a caving sub section on our divers forum ( Southwestmafia ). To my mind caving and diving went hand in hand as diving tends to be restricted to the Summer months. You therefore get two active hobbies following on from each other. To be honest both the caving section and the main diving forum have gone into decline. Diving is very weather dependent and folk were getting fed up losing time off work and not getting to sea. Also costs of fuel and helium have gone up considerably and the heady days of virgin wrecks and virgin caves have diminished greatly. The age of exploration if you like has now passed. I still remember seeing a huge party of children coming out of Rod's Pot. Those things rarely happen now with everyone concerned with duty of care. I wont knock "the professionals " as at least they are introducing new blood into the sport. Two of my old diving buddies are getting along nicely with Christine Grosart. ( The typical diver/caver scenario ). I doubt they would have even bothered without the professional introduction. I am quite prepared to do my bit so I welcome pm's from attractive young ladies keen for a fumble around in the dark.

 

[graham]

Two of my old diving buddies are getting along nicely with Christine Grosart.

Say no more!

 

[Andy Sparrow]

If there is a decline in active caver numbers and our caves see less visitors than in previous years, isn't that a good thing?

Many of the arguments put forward on this forum to support restrictive cave access systems cite reducing the number of visitors in order to conserve the caves. 

Surely cavers cannot support restricting access to caves and also support encouraging more people to take up the sport.  It's a contradiction - those new cavers are going to have to go caving somewhere!

I would argue that we need enough new blood to sustain our 'institutions'.  This means our long-standing clubs, national bodies and rescue teams.  Many of these institutions seem to be demographically top heavy, some to an extent that could threaten their existence in 20 years time.

 

[Badlad]

If there is a decline in active caver numbers and our caves see less visitors than in previous years, isn't that a good thing?

Many of the arguments put forward on this forum to support restrictive cave access systems cite reducing the number of visitors in order to conserve the caves. 

Surely cavers cannot support restricting access to caves and also support encouraging more people to take up the sport.  It's a contradiction - those new cavers are going to have to go caving somewhere!

I would argue that we need enough new blood to sustain our 'institutions'.  This means our long-standing clubs, national bodies and rescue teams.  Many of these institutions seem to be demographically top heavy, some to an extent that could threaten their existence in 20 years time.

I agree we should welcome young cavers and new cavers alike.  However, you can't throw out the old ones to make room for them.  As some of the posts suggest, there are many people caving much longer (much older) than in bygone eras.  My point is that you can't restrict access as a means of conserving caves, as our national and regional bodies seem to support (opposition to CRoW for example), and still go about promoting caving to encourage new people into the sport (Try Caving).

We should welcome people into caving if they have an interest and our national/regional bodies should spend their efforts on education rather than restriction.

 

[Pete Brookdale]

Arriving at BPF Sat It looked like the good old days loads of cars, people getting changed etc instead of the we're the only ones here normality!

 

[paul]

I expect there will be a flurry of extra activity for a while with University club Freshers trips.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Personally I don't think we should be concerned by the demographics per se, my personal experience suggests that there is a reasonable up take amongst the middle-aged, either returning to caving or getting into it for the first time and they tend to stick around longer than the younger end.