Decline in caving numbers
- Thread starter TheBitterEnd
- Start date
ah147
New member
I'd suggest, and I know most of you shall very quickly snub this, that very few younger people are actually aware caving is a sport!
I'm young myself, only 22. But caving pictures I put on facebook are often superseded by "what are you doing there?", I genuinely mention caving to several people and, even though the clue is in the name, several ask me what that is!
I obviously can't guess how much mainstream media caving got back in the old days, but in modern days its basically none-existent.
I'm young myself, only 22. But caving pictures I put on facebook are often superseded by "what are you doing there?", I genuinely mention caving to several people and, even though the clue is in the name, several ask me what that is!
I obviously can't guess how much mainstream media caving got back in the old days, but in modern days its basically none-existent.
Oceanrower
Active member
Whilst "sport" is hard to define, I also do not think caving is a sport.
Passtime, hobby, career (for some), obsession (for others) but sport? No.
Passtime, hobby, career (for some), obsession (for others) but sport? No.
I've had to explain what caving / potholing is to various age groups over the years.ah147 said:
As for the media; there have been a few positive articles over recent years in mainstream media, maybe people pass it by and don't read it. On the rare occasion I purchase a paper (for example) I don't look at everything, only what I think might be worth reading in more detail.
I was lucky enough to have been given some cuttings from newspapers (60s-70s) a few years back and whilst some are rescue related, there are some more positive articles, so it's not all over the papers and rightly so in my opinion, but it has always been there..
Sketchy, as you say, depends how you define "sport". There are those that indulge only in what is sometimes referred to as "sporting caving trips" and have no desire to visit obscure holes or do any form of digging. Are they sport cavers?Oceanrower said:
Blakethwaite
New member
As its a physical activity I'd call it a sport, even if its not competitive.
Stamp collecting & folk singing are hobbies and passtimes to my mind.
Stamp collecting & folk singing are hobbies and passtimes to my mind.
ah147
New member
As regard to "sporting caving trips"...I'd still classify them as playing a game rather than anything else.
A sport (football, rugby, cricket) tends to be relatively low risk and of little lasting consequence.
In my eyes, games are always played for keeps. Which applies to sporting caving trips as well as obscure holes, pushing new caves and digging.
I'm not sure why I posted the word sport, as normally its a term I shy away from.
EDITED: we seem to be hijacking this thread...would a separate one be more appropriate?
A sport (football, rugby, cricket) tends to be relatively low risk and of little lasting consequence.
In my eyes, games are always played for keeps. Which applies to sporting caving trips as well as obscure holes, pushing new caves and digging.
I'm not sure why I posted the word sport, as normally its a term I shy away from.
EDITED: we seem to be hijacking this thread...would a separate one be more appropriate?
dunc said:
Yes, I would say you could use that term. Personally, I have always used the term "tourist trip" to describe any non-explorational visits to already discovered caves or passages, no matter how "sporting" they might be considered, so I would suggest that your sport cavers could be classed as tourist cavers as well.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Curious, I would regard any physically demanding activity with a defined objective as a "sport" - e.g. fell walking, skiing. I would think it a game if it was competitive and had a set of "artificial" rules - e.g. rugby. So most physically demanding activities would be sports but not all sports would be games.
I take Grahams point about the original definition - huntin', shootin', fishin' - but they are all things done by individuals largely for the pleasure and self-challenge of doing them rather than a rules based competition (I know the edges are blurred in that there could be competition and rules in those activities but then they become games). Following that ethos, caving, climbing, fell walking are also conducted for the self-challenge and "pleasure"
I take Grahams point about the original definition - huntin', shootin', fishin' - but they are all things done by individuals largely for the pleasure and self-challenge of doing them rather than a rules based competition (I know the edges are blurred in that there could be competition and rules in those activities but then they become games). Following that ethos, caving, climbing, fell walking are also conducted for the self-challenge and "pleasure"
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Maybe a sad sign of the times when the biggest threads on here are Wezzits, Jokes and video clips. Perhaps most cavers today are the armchair variety.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Ahem ... the Reservoir Hole thread has had around 84 posts per month and the Jokes thread has had around 43.
This is another constant refrain on here that I get sick of reading. There are plenty of active cavers (some of them real caving hero's) on this forum as well as some armchair ones. Constant posts of "I went caving, nothing much to report" would just be dull, so we discuss other things but don't think that the vast majority don't or didn't go caving.
And while I?m having a rant I also get tired of the ?Mary Whitehouses? who read this forum just so that they can moan about it in the pub but never actually make a contribution. As web forums go this is a good one and if you want to see something different, start a thread!
This is another constant refrain on here that I get sick of reading. There are plenty of active cavers (some of them real caving hero's) on this forum as well as some armchair ones. Constant posts of "I went caving, nothing much to report" would just be dull, so we discuss other things but don't think that the vast majority don't or didn't go caving.
And while I?m having a rant I also get tired of the ?Mary Whitehouses? who read this forum just so that they can moan about it in the pub but never actually make a contribution. As web forums go this is a good one and if you want to see something different, start a thread!
Bottlebank
New member
Only during the week, at weekends I dig
ah147
New member
Anothe thing has occurred to me, especially among the younger demographic.
Has anyone given thought to the increasing costs of acquiring a driving license and car? Then combined with the costs of owning a car (especially insurance with younger people) and then combine this with an increasing trend of minimum hours, minimum wage jobs leading to a lack of disposable income?
Has anyone given thought to the increasing costs of acquiring a driving license and car? Then combined with the costs of owning a car (especially insurance with younger people) and then combine this with an increasing trend of minimum hours, minimum wage jobs leading to a lack of disposable income?
Blakethwaite
New member
ah147 said:
It doesn't appear to lead to a lack of 400 quid a pop-I-phones & similar gadgetry!
Bottlebank
New member
In the good old days that was why everyone joined a club - cheapest way of doing it!
Anyone thinking the youth of today is a bit skint should have tried it thirty, forty or fifty years ago
bograt
Active member
Another aspect to bring into the debate is the personal cost of caving today compared with when I started, back in the 60's, then it was any old warm clothes with a hand-me-down boiler suit to keep it all "Tucked in", boots you couldn't care about, a cadged old miners helmet, and a "stinky" or if you could afford it an old Oldham miners lamp (about the only thing you had to pay a significant thing for). Clubs supplied ladders & lifelines, a good club would offer you loan of a reliable light. As you progressed you might invest in a "Goon Suit" or a home made wetsuit.
Nowadays, personal expenditure includes undersuit, oversuit, high power specialised light, wellies of your choice (wellies were onced frowned upon) harnesses left, right & centre, descenders, ascenders, etc. etc., the expenditure on personal caving gear bears no comparison to what it was then, in those days you joined a club to get access to ladders & lifelines, and get down holes.
If I where to go down P8 today using the same equipment as when I did it for the first time over 40 years ago, I would be either;
1. Berated off the planet.
2. Banned from caving for life.
3. Ostracised from any caving organisation.
4. Slated to within an inch of my life on this forum.
Point is that the cost of personal equipment nowadays mean that teenagers (as I was when I started) consider they have "better" things to spend their money on than personal caving gear.
I cannot deny that progression in techniques and equipment have led to uncountable discoveries but the point I am trying to make is that it is not so easy for youngsters to get started as it was in my day.
Nowadays, personal expenditure includes undersuit, oversuit, high power specialised light, wellies of your choice (wellies were onced frowned upon) harnesses left, right & centre, descenders, ascenders, etc. etc., the expenditure on personal caving gear bears no comparison to what it was then, in those days you joined a club to get access to ladders & lifelines, and get down holes.
If I where to go down P8 today using the same equipment as when I did it for the first time over 40 years ago, I would be either;
1. Berated off the planet.
2. Banned from caving for life.
3. Ostracised from any caving organisation.
4. Slated to within an inch of my life on this forum.
Point is that the cost of personal equipment nowadays mean that teenagers (as I was when I started) consider they have "better" things to spend their money on than personal caving gear.
I cannot deny that progression in techniques and equipment have led to uncountable discoveries but the point I am trying to make is that it is not so easy for youngsters to get started as it was in my day.