Decline in caving numbers

[ah147]

I priced up recently a full caving kit for a friend.

For the cheapest possible price, a combination of clothing, srt gear abd duo light+helmet came to circa ?500

EDIT: (pressed post by accident) this in real life is broken up into smaller purchases. When I started (only 6 months ago) I borrowed everything off other members including srt gear apart from wellies, kneepads and socks.

So I don't think caving is that heavy on the wallet. ?100 a month for 5 months is less than many of us spend in the pub!

 

[Blakethwaite]

Which is about the price of a budget 'proper' mountain bike I think but before shoes, outfits & helmets, bike racks, shiny anodised upgrades, spare bikes etc & mountain biking is plainly popular.

Not convinced price is a barrier, it doesn't appear to be in other sports. 

 

[Andy Sparrow]

My caving log book records that on the 14th October 1973 there were more than 50 vehicles on Priddy Green and a 1.5 hour queue either side of the Twenty.  I think this era, 40 years ago, marks the peak in popularity of Mendip caving (and probably caving  generally in the UK).  Back at that time if you were an adventurous outdoors sort of person you really had just three choices.  You could be a caver or a climber or a paddler (there was the relatively new sport of diving for the more affluent). 

Today 'adventure' sports and activities have never been more popular.  None of the following had been invented 40 years ago:

mountain biking
paragliding
jet skiing
wind surfing
high ropes courses
sport climbing
paint balling
via ferrata
etc, etc...

It's not that people don't want adventure, or can't afford it.  There are more people than ever before getting out and enjoying stuff, but they are much less inclined to devote themselves to any one activity. 

I would hazard a guess that there may actually be more people caving today than there were in 1973, or at least having a caving experience.  The novice caves of Britain are as busy as ever.  What has really changed is the growth of instructed caving, and the decline in 'club' caving.  It's not just kids who are enjoying instructed caving - there are plenty of adults who spend a couple of weekends each year enjoying 'intermediate' level trips.  These people often divide their time between caving and other activities - paragliding one weekend, mountain biking the next...

There will always be that one in a thousand person who is absolutely captivated by cave exploration, and who will go on to be part of the next generation of club cavers.  The problem today is, firstly, to find that person and subsequently to induct them into caving club culture.

Now, let me say, that I am strong supporter of Try Caving initiatives, and I have met some very keen new club members who came along that avenue.  Try caving, is though, I suspect, unlikely to solve the recruitment problem alone.    Try caving is what we, in instructed caving, do nearly every working day.  In parallel to Try Caving I would like to see Continue Caving - a pathway that crosses the divide between instructed and club caving.  I'd like to have a nice glossy Continue Caving leaflet to give to my would-be new cavers, that would ease them into the club system under some kind of buddy or mentoring system (I'm talking 18+ here so no child protection issues).

Any thoughts on this?

 

[ah147]

Think you hit the nail on the head Andy.

More people just more widespread across different activity bases.

Your comments about making the move from guided novice trips to "proper" caving are interesting. This is a problem in climbing as well (as I'm sure many on here are aware) 1000 people go to an indoor wall, 100 may progress to crag climbing, 10 to winter, then just 1 onto alpine/big wall climbs.

The issue hasn't been solved in that sport either.

Your comments about a mentor system are interesting, this is essentially what happened to me (unofficually) I posted a plea on here to get started caving, someone answered, loaned me gear, helped introduce me to techniques, arranged suitable trips and introduced me to more of the club! As far as I'm concerned it's worked brilliantly. 6 months ago I'd never even been in a showcave. Now I'm reasonably proficient (though could be a little faster) at SRT, can rig easier drops and two weeks ago found my own way round a cave (with only one minor slip up)

 

[Bottlebank]

Andy,

I think you've described the situation perfectly and the continue caving idea and leaflet is an excellent one - why not link it to a decent web page that lists as many clubs and contacts as possible?

Tony

 

[Bottlebank]

Just had a look for an online list of clubs and immediately came up with the Try Caving web site, no offence to whoever put it together whilst it's functional it's not exactly inspirational and could really do with a makeover.

The list of clubs needs sorting out - most are listed under other areas. It really needs more of a "enter your postcode and find your nearest club approach".

 

[estelle]

Now, let me say, that I am strong supporter of Try Caving initiatives, and I have met some very keen new club members who came along that avenue.  Try caving, is though, I suspect, unlikely to solve the recruitment problem alone.    Try caving is what we, in instructed caving, do nearly every working day.  In parallel to Try Caving I would like to see Continue Caving - a pathway that crosses the divide between instructed and club caving.  I'd like to have a nice glossy Continue Caving leaflet to give to my would-be new cavers, that would ease them into the club system under some kind of buddy or mentoring system (I'm talking 18+ here so no child protection issues).

Any thoughts on this?

I think this is what the uni partnership schemes with mainstream caving clubs is going to try to achieve for uni students, but not everyone goes to uni and to be honest, i suspect that your average uni student when they leave uni isn't thinking about how they continue caving, but more about how they find a job, earn some money, live somewhere, etc. and are far more likely to take a few years break until they get stabilised into a career or something where they have the time and money to go back to it. I think a target audience that needs to be considered more is those that don't go to uni, who may have had a chance to try caving through school, scouts, etc. and the 'continue caving' option isn't perhaps so easy to find...

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Bring in "retro caving" we can go in an oily boiler suit and a carbide lamp. Compared to other sports caving is still inexpensive and with care the kit lasts a fair while. I still think clubs do not do enough for beginners specially those that make contact by email or post. A friend of mine tried that approach and got nowhere. One Mendip club never even replied. Its very easy for somebody considering caving ( and who knows little about it ) to be put off in the early stages. The "professionals " do a valuable job in that respect particularly with those who need a little encouragement. I think public perception does not help. All my neighbours think I am mad ( they could be right ). Why crawl around a muddy old hole all day ? I think the Wells museum exhibit is a big help as it puts the hobby in a good light. ( not crawling around muddy old holes maybe ). We still seem to be insular, the territory of odd folk with beards ( except Estelle maybe ). We had a fair bit of positive publicity with Reservoir but it wasnt nearly enough. Three minutes on the One Show and a Sunday Mail spread ( thanks David ). We have to let the public know caving is neither particularly dangerous, odd, dirty or done only by wierdos.( Except my mate Peter maybe ). As for the cost of travel. Cant see it. We go in one vehicle as a threesome and share the fuel cost which to me each week is ?6. I think even a " poor pensioner " can afford that. Try diving if you want expensive ancillary costs for 20 minutes on a deep wreck.

 

[graham]

Now, let me say, that I am strong supporter of Try Caving initiatives, and I have met some very keen new club members who came along that avenue.  Try caving, is though, I suspect, unlikely to solve the recruitment problem alone.    Try caving is what we, in instructed caving, do nearly every working day.  In parallel to Try Caving I would like to see Continue Caving - a pathway that crosses the divide between instructed and club caving.  I'd like to have a nice glossy Continue Caving leaflet to give to my would-be new cavers, that would ease them into the club system under some kind of buddy or mentoring system (I'm talking 18+ here so no child protection issues).

Any thoughts on this?

I think this is what the uni partnership schemes with mainstream caving clubs is going to try to achieve for uni students, but not everyone goes to uni and to be honest, i suspect that your average uni student when they leave uni isn't thinking about how they continue caving, but more about how they find a job, earn some money, live somewhere, etc. and are far more likely to take a few years break until they get stabilised into a career or something where they have the time and money to go back to it. I think a target audience that needs to be considered more is those that don't go to uni, who may have had a chance to try caving through school, scouts, etc. and the 'continue caving' option isn't perhaps so easy to find...

It all depends on the Uni club. We (UBSS) do quite well at retaining our graduate members (our structure allows us to do this, I do know that many others don't) & they both keep caving with us & also join other clubs elsewhere, depending on where they end up living and working.

 

[paul]

As for the cost of travel. Cant see it. We go in one vehicle as a threesome and share the fuel cost which to me each week is ?6. I think even a " poor pensioner " can afford that. Try diving if you want expensive ancillary costs for 20 minutes on a deep wreck.

We get quite a lot of visitors staying at our club hut in the Peak. Years ago cars would turn up with 3 or 4 cavers in each vehicle. Nowadays it seems everyone turns up in their own car with maybe a few having 2 cavers. Most visitors travel quite a long way (otherwise why pay to stay at a club hut?) and are probably paying around ?40 or ?50 on fuel for the weekend. So it can be still  quite expensive to travel to a caving area if you live an appreciable distance away.

 

[jasonbirder]

While acquiring a full set of "pukka kit" with a  high tech LED lamp and full srt kit costs a bot (tho' not alot in the great scheme of things) there's no real need for that in the early days...
And besides most clubs or groups will have spare kit they're happy to loan out to newcomers until they've got their own...

Most people that want to give caving a go will find clubs/volunteers happy to give them a go and take them underground to see if they like it...

So as far as "barriers to getting into the hobby" go I'd say the bar was set pretty low...you don't need to buy kit...and you'll get people who'll show you the ropes (as it were) for free!

 

[Cave Mapper]

Caving is surely an 'Adventure Sport' alongside rock climbing. mountaineering, kayaking, surfing, mountain biking and the rest. If we want to encourage new people into caving we need to embrace the adventure sports ethos and join the boom.

Last night I was caving with four others. Our party included accomplished rock climbers, mountaineers, mountain bikers and snow boarders. All were competent cavers, but none had any interest in joining a traditional caving club.

There is a massive pool of potential new cavers within the established adventure sports community. We shouldn't be pitching our Try Caving initiatives at the couch potatoes, it's got to be much easier to attract those who are already active in two or three other adventure sports. How about offering caving trips to a few adventure sports journalists. An occasional, informed article in the climbing press would be very good for our sport.

 

[ah147]

There is a massive pool of potential new cavers within the established adventure sports community. We shouldn't be pitching our Try Caving initiatives at the couch potatoes, it's got to be much easier to attract those who are already active in two or three other adventure sports. How about offering caving trips to a few adventure sports journalists. An occasional, informed article in the climbing press would be very good for our sport.

A big thumbs up for this comment. Though many climbers would shy away from the idea, a fair few could be drawn in I reckon.

 

[Gollum]

I know loads of climbers who have come over to the dark side. Thankfully I don't know of any cavers who have defected to the other side

 

[estelle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-24534691 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24575465 - two items in the media today, which clearly shows that caving isn't the only sport seeing less and less youngsters getting as involved. One of the things mentioned on the rescue page was about resorting to using social media to try and attract new people. Maybe that is an area clubs might want to explore more??

 

[ah147]

...One of the things mentioned on the rescue page was about resorting to using social media to try and attract new people. Maybe that is an area clubs might want to explore more??

It is incredibly useful but does take a massive amount of upkeep! I'm slowly drawing in another newbie from pictures on my page though.

 

[graham]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-24534691 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24575465 - two items in the media today, which clearly shows that caving isn't the only sport seeing less and less youngsters getting as involved. One of the things mentioned on the rescue page was about resorting to using social media to try and attract new people. Maybe that is an area clubs might want to explore more??

This is where a significant part of our problem lies: The first of those links notes that over the same period that the rescue was failing to recruit, the number of incidents was rising. This, I would guess, is a consequence of the apparent fact, outlined above, that many people are just trying these activities or see themselves as 'consumers' of multiple activities without being committed to any particular one. This will impact not just on the rescue teams' ability to recruit, but on the admin of the sport at all levels. Without these volunteers, things will get very hard and not just for caving.

 

[paul]

I would imagine that it is a similar case for Cave Rescue teams (one article referenced by Estelle is about Lakeland Mountan Rescue Teams having problems attract youmger members).

Of course by actively seeking to attract younger blood into caving you are more likely increase numbers than by doing nothing, but it may be the case that the younger population as a whole simply have less and less interest in caving, etc.  They may already be aware of it but just aren't interested.

There are many activites which were popular in the past which have dwindeled in numbers with time and maybe caving, etc. is another example? Who knows?

 

[Spike]

Has the BCA or any one else considered displaying here:

http://telegraphoutdoorshow.co.uk/

I went with a few others last year and was quite impressed at most of it, aside from some of the OTT trade stands - although NikWax had an excellent discount stand for their tech-wash and waterproofing stuff with some very knowledgeable and helpful staff, but that's beside the point...

The point is...

Whilst the BMC were there and there was plenty to be found about climbing, walking, kayaking etc, I don't recall seeing anything to do with caving besides one company who manufacture sections of artificial cave, and they were, perhaps unsurprisingly, more interested in promoting the artificial stuff than getting people to do it for real!

Whilst we probably don't have the same scale of professionally* organised expeditions as the mountaineers, trekkers etc. I wonder if there should be a presence from the BCA as the national body (perhaps under the TryCaving umbrella?) to increase awareness of caving in both the UK and abroad...

This ties in more with CaveMapper's thoughts in terms of addressing the Adventure Sports community, rather than the general public, but I recall there being a lot of "young blood" at the show so I'd have thought it worth a punt...

Taking it further - could we get some of our stars of the scene to talk about foreign expeditions on the Climb & Adventure Stage or get some of our renowned photographers to get some entries, or even talks, into the Adventure Photography Festival. After all - we have some of the most stunning sights and remote locations on the planet within our remit don't we?

I'm not sure if time is running out to get into the show for Feb 2014 so I guess if it's something worth doing, it'd have to be done soon.

Anyone think it's a barmy/worthwhile idea?

Spike



* please don't take offence at this  :halo: - I mean that afaik we don't have many groups putting out glossy brochures about all-inclusive trips to foreign lands for tourist purposes. Please tell me if I've got the wrong end of the stick

 

[Bottlebank]

Start at the top - not much point generating interest if it fizzles when people look further.

Try googling "caving".

After Wikipedia you get the BCA site, and the Try Caving site. If the BCA are serious about attracting new blood then they really ought to think about revamping both, there's plenty of talented cavers out there with the skills (graphic and web development) to get the site sorted out, it's not going to work well as it stands!

We've got a wealth of talent in the caving world, superb photo's, 3D caves, video's etc that could be used to help recruit potential cavers.

Maybe the BCA Webmaster should put out an appeal for someone to co-ordinate the job and some help on the graphic design front? I'd be willing to help, provided I don't have to attend any meetings