Extraordinary Meeting of the PDCMG

[fleur]

Sorry John,
I disagree. There were 10 clubs, 2 Officers and 12 votes cast.
The only point at which this was not the case was on the final vote mandating myself and the Conservation Officer to undertake discussions with the entrance diggers. This was unanimous with 10 votes, two voters having left the meeting at this time.
Fleur.

 

[John S]

I will wait for your numbers on the severe to normal access restrictions on Drws Cefn then.

 

[Richgerrish]

It has been said before and remains a fundamental truth - a cave access committee that closes caves will inevitably lose the support of the caving community.

It wouldn't actually be closing a cave though would it... just an entrance.

In this case, closing the entrance may well win the support of many cavers.

The PDCMG is a cave management group, not an access committee, the clue is in the name.

"fundamental truth", "inevitable".... long words to be eating, hope you're hungry Andy;-)

 

[Andy Sparrow]

It has been said before and remains a fundamental truth - a cave access committee that closes caves will inevitably lose the support of the caving community.

It wouldn't actually be closing a cave though would it... just an entrance.

In this case, closing the entrance may well win the support of many cavers.

The PDCMG is a cave management group, not an access committee, the clue is in the name.

"fundamental truth", "inevitable".... long words to be eating, hope you're hungry Andy;-)

It's like this.  I talk to a lot of cavers every week (it happens when you run a caving shop) and this topic has been a regular subject for discussion for some months.  The balance of opinion on the Draenen entrance is divided but there is a much stronger consensus when it comes to one group of cavers filling another group of cavers dig - people don't like it.  I suspect that this was reflected in the PDCMG meeting and it's why some of those opposed in principal to a second entrance stopped short of voting to close it.

You can have a snipe at me if you like but I am only the messenger. 

Of course we can test caver opinion here by having a poll on the issue...

 

[NigR]

I suspect that this was reflected in the PDCMG meeting and it's why some of those opposed in principal to a second entrance stopped short of voting to close it.

A vote was taken on which of four possible options might be taken regarding the future of the cave. This is the key vote referred to by John Stevens above. One of the options was indeed to close the cave. There were two votes cast for this.

So come on, Mr Gerrish - let's talk a little more about democracy and the eating of words!

 

[fleur]

I am very sorry to disappoint everybody but the only vote taken on the future of the new entrance to Ogof Draenen was for the following motion:

"Fleur Loveridge and Ben Lovett to consult with the diggers regarding immediate and long term control of access in accordance with the agreed policy"

This was agreed unanimously by the Group.

It is inevitable that some control of the entrance will need to be made as at the moment it is open and of concern to the landowner.

As I have said before, in the mean time can people please repsect the landowner's wishes and allow the requisite discussions to go ahead unheeded.

Many thanks, Fleur.

 

[fleur]

A vote was taken on which of four possible options might be taken regarding the future of the cave. This is the key vote referred to by John Stevens above.

This is not the case. No vote was taken on the future of the cave other than the one I have indicated above. While some clubs felt they had a mandate to make an immediate decision on this issue, the majority of clubs felt that they had no mandate to do so yet. Hence why there are now further discussions to be had. Please can people respect that process while it is ongoing.

Thanks you, Fleur.

 

[andymorgan]

The balance of opinion on the Draenen entrance is divided but there is a much stronger consensus when it comes to one group of cavers filling another group of cavers dig - people don't like it.  I suspect that this was reflected in the PDCMG meeting and it's why some of those opposed in principal to a second entrance stopped short of voting to close it.

Probably because it doesn't really seem to have been stated properly that apparently the dig was only about 20m from known passage. It seems like people have been led to believe that this dig just happened to chance upon connecting with Draenen. Perhaps with that fact in mind people may have a slightly different opinion....

 

[whitelackington]

I am very sorry to disappoint everybody but the only vote taken on the future of the new entrance to Ogof Draenen was for the following motion:

"Fleur Loveridge and Ben Lovett to consult with the diggers regarding immediate and long term control of access in accordance with the agreed policy"

This was agreed unanimously by the Group.

It is inevitable that some control of the entrance will need to be made as at the moment it is open and of concern to the landowner.

As I have said before, in the mean time can people please repsect the landowner's wishes and allow the requisite discussions to go ahead unheeded.

Many thanks, Fleur.

Presuambly the cave has been  open for "some time"
so why might it be that the landowners are NOW concerned.
Is it because someone fom The PDCMG has spoken with them,
passing their fears on?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

The balance of opinion on the Draenen entrance is divided but there is a much stronger consensus when it comes to one group of cavers filling another group of cavers dig - people don't like it.  I suspect that this was reflected in the PDCMG meeting and it's why some of those opposed in principal to a second entrance stopped short of voting to close it.

Probably because it doesn't really seem to have been stated properly that apparently the dig was only about 20m from known passage. It seems like people have been led to believe that this dig just happened to chance upon connecting with Draenen.

I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe that.

Perhaps with that fact in mind people may have a slightly different opinion....

No, they wont.  Cavers don't like other cavers blocking caves or filling in digs.  Simple as that.

 

[John S]

Probably because it doesn't really seem to have been stated properly that apparently the dig was only about 20m from known passage. It seems like people have been led to believe that this dig just happened to chance upon connecting with Draenen. Perhaps with that fact in mind people may have a slightly different opinion....

The cave I believe is long enough to have its own entry in Caves of South Wales, with potental to increase this much further. Remember passages pass quite happily under others. It is also on the water shed in this part of the system with the streams now running SE not SW, so hyrologically very intersting. It has active and fosil passages.

 

[fleur]

Presuambly the cave has been  open for "some time"
so why might it be that the landowners are NOW concerned.
Is it because someone fom The PDCMG has spoken with them,
passing their fears on?

When the PDCMG became aware of the entrance it informed the landowner as is only right and proper. As I have said before on this forum the landowner has concerns regarding the location of the entrance, access without permission and liability. This is independent of any concerns some cavers have regarding the increased conservation risks. The PDCMG will decide collectively upon what course of action it recommends, but ultimately the landowner will make the decision about the final outcome.

Fleur.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Years ago, at an un-named mine which we had permission to enter, because of repeated problems with local oiks, the landowner filled up one entrance (there were two) after checking with us that we didn't have a problem with it. We agreed, and kept an eye on the blocked entrance. A particular pair of cavers took it upon themselves to try to reopen this entrance. On one of my checking visits, I found the half dug out entrance and spent 30 minutes or so throwing all the excavated rocks back in. Low and behold, one of said cavers turned up to continue his digging while I was there. I asked if he wouldn't mind lending a hand chucking the fill back in, and he did so, clearly rather half-heartedly. It was a sweet moment. The entrance remained blocked until the owner gave permission for us to construct a good secure gate in the old one's place, and it has remained good ever since. So, yes, other cavers might not like seeing their work undone, but for me, an owner with whom we had a good relationship comes first.

 

[andymorgan]

I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe that.

Well see the subsequent post after yours...

The cave I believe is long enough to have its own entry in Caves of South Wales, with potental to increase this much further. Remember passages pass quite happily under others. It is also on the water shed in this part of the system with the streams now running SE not SW, so hyrologically very intersting. It has active and fosil passages.

Well I remain somewhat unconvinced about the 'potential'. Also, somehow I doubt there is an active passage there. It has been stated elsewhere that it is drier than the entrance, and most of the time the entrance isn't really wet.

 

[John S]

Well I remain somewhat unconvinced about the 'potential'. Also, somehow I doubt there is an active passage there. It has been stated elsewhere that it is drier than the entrance, and most of the time the entrance isn't really wet.

Fortuneately I probably have more information on this area than any others. The area has 2 main levels of cave formation. That roughly being the wyvern -3 amegios level and lower level of Big Country. 2 intersesting faults lie very close bye and I will try and identify then when I do the survey. Higher levels to these may exist as there are several avens in the area with some development. The stream starts in wyvern and probably enters Big County but no dye test. Water sinks at various pionts in the valley above the cave along the fault line, so the cave will get damp in wet weather. How was it last weekend?

 

[John S]

If they have found say only 100m would this still be the largest find in the Dreanen area this year ? 
I think its more that that though.

 

[andymorgan]

Somehow I think if this area really does have such potential, it would have been the focus of diggers years ago. After all, this area can all be reached from Draenen.

 

[John S]

Somehow I think if this area really does have such potential, it would have been the focus of diggers years ago. After all, this area can all be reached from Draenen.

Put very simply, this is an ideal midweek dig, as apposed to a long distance weekend dig. Many cavers have several of  both, which are rotated. Afterall, midweek you spend two to three hours digging and head for the pub. 
And as said earlier, has anyone found more passage in the Dreanen area this year?

 

[andymorgan]

Ok, so why the sudden interest in the surface dig? Wasn't it abandoned by the Chelsea before or around the time Draenen was discovered, and probably hasn't been touched again because everyone knows where it would go. The current timing of its reworking seems somewhat suspicious...

 

[NigR]

Ok, so why the sudden interest in the surface dig? Wasn't it abandoned by the Chelsea before or around the time Draenen was discovered, and probably hasn't been touched again because everyone knows where it would go.

As I have already stated, it was not a surface dig when we took it on. As for when and why it was abandoned, I am sure John Stevens can enlighten you better than I can as he was one of the original Chelsea SS diggers.

Not so sure about 'sudden' interest. We were digging it on and off for more than three years before we broke through.

Will address some of the points you have raised in your previous posts a little later when I have more time, Andy.