Extraordinary Meeting of the PDCMG

[Pete Talling]

From one of the original diggers of Drwys Cefn - which they agreed should be posted on the forum. They were upset by what is going on - P

Thinking more about the Draenen issue, and reading all that has been written in /Descent/, I would say I am now pretty solidly opposed to a second entrance in the way it is currently being considered, i.e. via known passage that approaches close to the surface, or potential digs that lie close to known passage. I feel a bit guilty about being
involved in one such dig inwards (Ogof Drws Cefn) back in the mid-90s, but I was young and foolish then, whereas now I am just old and foolish. There is always the potential with a system potentially so vast as Draenen that a dig miles from known passage may, ultimately, link up with the system and thereby create a second entrance. I don?t think it realistic to forbid anyone digging in draughty holes down near Pontypool on this basis so, should a connection be made then the whole matter would need to be readdressed. So, my verdict ? definitely no second entrance at present.

 

[NigR]

From one of the original diggers of Drwys Cefn.....

Pete,
The Secretary of the PDCMG has specifically asked me not to name the cave on a public forum in order to minimise unwanted caver traffic for the time being whilst discussions are taking place. If you want to ignore those guidelines that is your own decision but you could at least make an effort to get the spelling correct. Shows a total lack of respect for the language of the people in whose country you choose to cave in my opinion.

.....So, my verdict ? definitely no second entrance at present.

Bit late now isn't it? If you want to go down this route might I suggest you take a vote amongst the original diggers of the cave you name and see what the outcome is. John Stevens will be up at Whitewalls for the Chelsea SS bonfire party this weekend and I'm sure he would be willing to conduct it on your behalf if you can't make it yourself.

 

[graham]

Hmm, Pete's correspondent mentioned "a" dig, if it turns out to be "the" dig then I don't think that it was Pete who broadcast that fact.

There is, possibly, a simple way of answering this:

Did GOG have the landowner's permission to dig in Drws Cefn?

 

[AndyF]

It has been said before and remains a fundamental truth - a cave access committee that closes caves will inevitably lose the support of the caving community.

Thats not a "fundamental truth" at all.....  for example Deep Shaft entrance to Carlswark was blocked many years ago, as was the through route to Gimli's Dream.

Neither lost support of the caving community as they were done for logical reasons..

 

[Pete Talling]

Nig,

The cave has already been named and described on the forum by others. You yourself have now implied on the forum that there is another new entrance in the northern part of the system. Previous posts abouth digging 5th entrances have implied this too.

Can you constructively suggest how the wider caving community can provide their views on this Drws Cefn entrance, without knowing its location and character. Should a survey be posted but only after there is a gate on the new entrance(s). It would be good to know the views of all Drws Cefn diggers perhaps.

I do make spelling mistakes. I think Wales is great. I cannot control where I was born, and but I do support Wales every time in Rugby. One of the things I most respect about Wales is that they have their own flourishing language.

Iechyd da! Pete

 

[NigR]

You yourself have now implied on the forum that there is another new entrance in the northern part of the system.

But I don't know the name of that one, hence couldn't name it if I wanted to. That is the difference.

It would be good to know the views of all Drws Cefn diggers perhaps.

Had to read this several times just to ensure I hadn't got it wrong. But no, it would appear that we might have finally agreed on something (not trying to fool me again are you?). This is precisely what I suggested in my last post. Will ask John Stevens to start conducting a survey amongst past CSS diggers when I speak to him tomorrow.

.........but I do support Wales every time in Rugby.

Glad to hear it (although I think another Pete on this board might be having the last laugh tomorrow).

 

[pete_the_caver]

Glad to hear it (although I think another Pete on this board might be having the last laugh tomorrow).

You're right on that one Nig.  Have the black shirt packed and now just need to sneak down from Penwyllt to the Copper or Shunt tomorrow.  Will that 56 year loosing streak continue

 

[Debs]

Hi,

I am an UBSS member and I would just like to say that Pete Talling has our clubs full support at the meetings involved in this matter and has been representing our club's opinions well and will continue to do so.

Thanks,
Debs

 

[NigR]

I am an UBSS member and I would just like to say that Pete Talling has our clubs full support at the meetings involved in this matter and has been representing our club's opinions well and will continue to do so.

That's good to hear.

 

[cap n chris]

[Devil's Advocate]
"Full support", democratically speaking, may equate to 51% of the membership, though, surely?
[/Devil's Advocate]

 

[Pete Talling]

Or it can mean a committee vote of 10-1 - 1 (for/against/abstention). Plus three further opinions for and one against voiced via email from those outside Bristol.

That UBSS committee vote could also not include the club reps own view - who is trying to let the other folks in his club have their say.

Many club reps include an indication the percentage vote (90% or 51%) when giving their club report at PDCMG. This gives a sense of the strength of the mandate. They also try to read out specific views voiced by individuals in their club to give reasons for why the club voted as it did.

Yes, democracy via the PDCMG - has anyone got a better system for making decisions about the cave?

If so, can people say what it is, and why it is better?

Pete

 

[cap n chris]

Thanks for the clarification, Pete, in light of which it would appear Deb's original post should have been:

"I am an UBSS member and I would just like to say that Pete Talling has our committee's full support at the meetings involved in this matter and has been representing our committee's opinions well and will continue to do so".

 

[whitelackington]

[Devil's Advocate]
"Full support", democratically speaking, may equate to 51% of the membership, though, surely?
[/Devil's Advocate]

It does seem that the U.B.S.S. revel in dictating to others,
why are "they" so keen on controll?
I detect the hand of Graham in this.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Unlike the MCG, or BDCC, I expect the UBSS doesn't have to cope with a loose cannon rolling about the deck jumping onto whatever band-wagon is the flavour of the day and generally causing trouble. Sorry about the incredibly mixed metaphors.

 

[whitelackington]

Take a look at this:

?The Group reserves the right to prevent or control access to entrances or connections that it deems to be against the interests of the cave. ?
Proposed OC, seconded CD
Votes for: 6  [OUCC, BEC, UBSS, MCC, CCC, FAL]
Votes against: 2  [CSS, GOG]
Abstentions: 4  [WCC, Gagendor, SWCC, DD]
So does this mean that five clubs think it is right to fill in other's cave digging efforts?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think it means what it says, and it doesn't necessarily mean filling in entrances. Do you have a problem with the english language?

 

[martinr]

Unlike the MCG, or BDCC

or the ACG

 

[whitelackington]

I think it means what it says, and it doesn't necessarily mean filling in entrances. Do you have a problem with the english language?


[/quote

No I don't that's because I was born in England and only speak English,
are you imagining I am some sort of Johny Foreigner Peter.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Mick - please remove the rolling eyes from the quote of my post. Editing other people's posts is unacceptable. Just shows what sort of person you are. I thought you were becoming someone it was possible to hold an intelligent discussion with. Clearly I was wrong and need no longer waste my time on your rantings until I think otherwise. Your comment on the minute you quoted was I think an attempt to distort what was decided. There was no mention of filling anything in was there?

 

[Ian Adams]

...... Yes, democracy via the PDCMG - has anyone got a better system for making decisions about the cave?

If so, can people say what it is, and why it is better?

Pete

Yes, this ....

[quote author=Peter Burgess]
I suppose a good way would be for the cavers who have the most interest in the cave get together and forge a policy that will be acceptable to the owner and which will provide the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances. How's that?
[/quote]



Ian