Extraordinary Meeting of the PDCMG

[rhychydwr1]

You mean like this:

  :  :
Mick - please remove the rolling eyes from the quote of my post. Editing other people's posts is unacceptable.  : Just shows what sort of person you are.  : :I thought you were becoming someone it was possible to hold an intelligent discussion with. Clearly I was wrong and need no longer waste my time on your rantings until I think otherwise.  : : Your comment on the minute you quoted was I think an attempt to distort what was decided.  : : There was no mention of filling anything in was there?

 

[graham]

...... Yes, democracy via the PDCMG - has anyone got a better system for making decisions about the cave?

If so, can people say what it is, and why it is better?

Pete

Yes, this ....

[quote author=Peter Burgess]
I suppose a good way would be for the cavers who have the most interest in the cave get together and forge a policy that will be acceptable to the owner and which will provide the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances. How's that?

Ian
[/quote]

Do you mean that the clubs with a direct interest in the cave could group together and come to an agreement with the landowner? They could call it a "Management Group"

err, hang on ...

 

[cap n chris]

Mick - please remove the rolling eyes from the quote of my post.

Just done this for you, Peter.

 

[John S]

?The Group reserves the right to prevent or control access to entrances or connections that it deems to be against the interests of the cave. ?

Does this mean it is not going to control access for entrances deemed in the interest of the cave 

Or is that how the original entrance is controlled?

The filling of others work was thrown out and it was desirable to control access of other entrances. It seems to have been strengthened a shade. I might paraphase a bit, but thats the feeling I got from the meeting.

 

[Ian Adams]

Graham,

Do you make special effort to twist and distort what other people say or is it a natural talent you have ?

Ian

 

[Peter Burgess]

Graham has understood what I was saying perfectly.

 

[graham]

:hug:

 

[Peter Burgess]

:doubt:  :yucky: 

 

[graham]

better than  :kiss2: surely. 

 

[Ian Adams]

Oh, I see.

When you said;

I suppose a good way would be for the cavers who have the most interest in the cave get together and forge a policy that will be acceptable to the owner and which will provide the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances. How's that?

What I thought you meant was;

I suppose a good way would be for the cavers who have the most interest in the cave get together and forge a policy that will be acceptable to the owner and which will provide the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances. How's that?

I am sorry I didn't realise that it was allegorical.

Ian

 

[Imo]

...... Yes, democracy via the PDCMG - has anyone got a better system for making decisions about the cave?

If so, can people say what it is, and why it is better?

Pete

Yes, this ....

[quote author=Peter Burgess]
I suppose a good way would be for the cavers who have the most interest in the cave get together and forge a policy that will be acceptable to the owner and which will provide the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances. How's that?

Ian
[/quote]

Hi Ian,

I think what Peter Burgess is aluding to in his post, is that this is how the PDCMG came about. Is that right Peter?

I think Graham is saying this too, that this is how the PDCMG came about.

I don't understand why you believe differently to be honest? Do you have some reason to think its not the case?

I would suggest that if one started again, you'd get all the clubs active in the cave - they'd vote for their rep, who would vote in accordance with the club's wishes, and all the reps would come together.  The group would create policies that the landowner was happy with....a constitution would be made, which they'd operate under, officers would be elected etc and you would end up with the PDCMG, as it is now, same clubs, same faces.

Some of the policies are under review, club reps are going back to their clubs for further direction after the EGM. Our club is not a member club as at this time there is only myself from  our club regularly going in Draenen. But I'm happy it seems to be a balanced and fair group.

(Correct me if I've misunderstood anyone's postings. Its not always easy to follow).

 

[Ian Adams]

Imo,

Thank you for your intelligent post.

It may well be that Peter was referring to the PDCMG (but he doesn't say so) and that this is how he saw their coming into existence But ?..

1) I have asked (a number of times) how the PDCMG actually came ?into being? and the closet answer I got was from ?Pete Talling?. However, when pressed, his partial response was not substantiated and my question(s) went unanswered.

2) The PDCMG has ?conservation? at the very front end of it?s constitution and it?s entire raison d?etre is based on it.  This conflicts with Peters quote.

3) Peter doesn?t mention any single agendas or totalitarianism in his suggestion but, rather, uses the phrase ?the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances?.? Clearly this is not the case as otherwise this entire thread would not exist.

I am afraid I was interpreting his quote literally ?.. But, interpreting it literally I think (my personal opinion) is that it is the best possible solution for the Draenen saga.

Ian

 

[owd git]

Very little room for ambiguity Ian, is that allowed here?
Well played that man!
O.G.

 

[NigR]

“The Group reserves the right to prevent or control access to entrances or connections that it deems to be against the interests of the cave. “

The filling of others work was thrown out and it was desirable to control access of other entrances.

John,

As you were at the meeting and I wasn't, could you help clarify this for me?

When you say that 'the filling of others work was thrown out' do you mean that it was discussed and then dismissed as being inappropriate?

My major problem with the wording as it stands is with the word 'prevent'. The only other way access to an entrance could be 'prevented' (other than by filling it in) would be to gate or seal it and not allow anyone (including those who discovered it) access. Is this your interpretation too? I need to have a good chat with Martin Laverty (our club rep) to find out how he sees it. If it says what I think it says, I have got grave doubts about belonging to a group that 'reserves the right' to invoke such measures.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I find that there are many occasions when people do not misunderstand what I write accidentally, but because they choose to do so.

 

[John S]

When you say that 'the filling of others work was thrown out' do you mean that it was discussed and then dismissed as being inappropriate?

My major problem with the wording as it stands is with the word 'prevent'. The only other way access to an entrance could be 'prevented' (other than by filling it in) would be to gate or seal it and not allow anyone (including those who discovered it) access. Is this your interpretation too? ......
[/quote]

Even though the meeting lasted some 6 hours, several times when votes were taken, I did not know the exact wording of the proposal, and a couple of words can make all the difference.
As to filling in entrance, this was discussed in passing towards the end when some people wanted to block it and "cement" was mentioned several times. This was the verbally rejected as not being the way to go.

I can see the next meeting going back though nearly all what was discussing at the last meeting because they should have started with the facts. i.e. there are three entrances, now how should they be best managed.

 

[rhychydwr1]

[snip]

[snip]

I can see the next meeting going back though nearly all what was discussing at the last meeting because they should have started with the facts. i.e. there are three entrances, now how should they be best managed.
[/quote]

Correction, after my last visit 2 weeks ago, I found 5 entrances.

 

[NigR]

Even though the meeting lasted some 6 hours, several times when votes were taken, I did not know the exact wording of the proposal, and a couple of words can make all the difference.

Thanks, John, that's precisely my point - it's the wording that matters. Looking at some of the results, I would hazard a guess that you were not alone in being unsure of the exact wording of a proposal prior to a vote taking place. As you say, this needs addressing at the next meeting.