Extraordinary Meeting of the PDCMG

[Peter Burgess]

It is indeed sad that such a situation has arisen.  However, we are where we are, and it is therefore a good thing that the issue is being discussed more widely (it is ten years since this was last done). As the new secretary of the PDCMG I am very keen to listen to people?s views and welcome opinion.  It is important that the consultation happens widely and fairly, so that everyone can accept the outcome as representative of the majority feeling, whatever that turns out to be.

I would echo these sentiments and I have been encouraged by the tone of Fleur's posts to date.

So I would say to everyone who may have an interest in this to do as she suggests - have your say and send her your opinions. I'm sure they will be read and noted.

Just be aware, however, that all this has been done before and that, if you want things to change, you are most likely wasting your time. Somewhere along the line (at the October meeting) a vote will take place, the outcome of which is already pre-determined due to the reasons I have previously outlined.

And then it will be back to square one - again!

Make up your mind, Nig. Either it is worth sending your views or it isn't.

 

[NigR]

Make up your mind, Nig. Either it is worth sending your views or it isn't.

Peter,

Yes, it is worth sending your views if you would like to express your opinion in this way. You will have the satisfaction of knowing that the Secretary of the PDCMG has listened to what you have to say.

No, it is not worth sending your views if you are doing so purely in the expectation of changing anything to do with the status quo because the voting system has been rigged in such a way that this is never going to happen.

Is that clear enough for you?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Nig

If you want to encourage anyone to make their views known for whatever reason, then suggesting that their views will be ignored is hardly an encouragement.

What is becoming increasingly clear to me (of course I may be wrong, but I can only tell you how it seems) is that you are playing politics. I hope I am wrong because however this is ultimately resolved, it is far better that it is not down to who shouts loudest, but who best represents a consensus that has been reached by fair and open means.

BTW, you don't need to patronise me.

 

[menacer]

Is there any reason a ukcaving poll could not be set up over this matter.
The uk caving forum represents a huge variety of opinions - this clearly from previous posts cannot be argued.
Its anonymous and avoids arguements, those that feel put off by all the beaurocracy can comment freely.

A poll of 2 questions.

I am happy for a 2nd entrance to exist.

or

I am not happy for a 2nd entrance to exist.


When you have an idea of the general consensus of cavers (not just club reps) you can work on a plan  from there.  :idea:

awaits an immediate response from graham.... :tease:

 

[Les W]

Is there any reason a ukcaving poll could not be set up over this matter.
The uk caving forum represents a huge variety of opinions - this clearly from previous posts cannot be argued.
Its anonymous and avoids arguements, those that feel put off by all the beaurocracy can comment freely.

A poll of 2 questions.

I am happy for a 2nd entrance to exist.

or

I am not happy for a 2nd entrance to exist.


When you have an idea of the general consensus of cavers (not just club reps) you can work on a plan  from there.  :idea:

awaits an immediate response from graham.... :tease:

A UK Caving poll would not be representative of the UK's cavers, just those that are on UK Caving.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Including those with more than one account  :spank:

 

[graham]

awaits an immediate response from graham.... :tease:

You cannot spell, it's bureaucracy! 

 

[Clive G]

Reading posts like this makes me bloody glad I dont belong to any of the big clubs, if this is what they are like. I can see why the club I belong to formed, specifically to get away from this sort of thing. which to my eyes looks like just arguing for arguing sake.

Oh well, I dont want to get involved so I will leave it at that but maybe you guys should step back and remeber we are cavers we, well I assume most of us started caving to explore strange new worlds, or to challange our selves pysically. I dont think anyone started caving to have something to sit around arguing about. If you want to do that join the goverment they love this sort of thing and see how well they run the country lol.

. . . a naive post Alex; . . .

Most people aren't interested in access issues but, if they were, they might a tad more respectful of the work done by that those who are.

. . .

A few years ago I asked Brian Price (discoverer of Agen Allwedd and first recorded explorer of Ogof Gam - responsible for the naming of both caves and promoter of the connection between the two) what his feeling was when he first saw the metal grille and locked gate on the cave he explored:

[quote author=Brian Price]

Well no, it wasn?t very nice, but I realised it had to be put there. I mean it, it . . . a metal grille puts the thing into the field of human relations. It puts a, it puts a natural phenomenon into the field of human strife, doesn?t it?! Huh, huh, as, as was proved with sundry people [subsequently] blowing the lock off and so on! But, it was a very great pity that the . . . things like the crystals in the Main Chamber of Aggy were messed up and taken. They all disappeared . . . At one time they tried to . . . tape them off, to preserve them, but nobody . . . nobody . . . what?s the word I want? . . . agreed to, to doing that . . . They were just desecrated . . .

You can?t, you can?t educate everybody can you? If the place is ? this is the trouble ? if the place is open for anybody to go in, you?re just going to get all sorts in there. And . . . it?s just a counsel of perfection to think that you can lock a cave up and preserve everything. You just have to have somebody to . . . In, in economics there?s, there?s what they call the ?Great Man Theory? . . . They think that any really successful business has got a ?Great Man? behind it. And I think with, with caves you, you?ve got to have some personality. Somebody who takes a thing under control and looks after it. If you start having committees and clubs and so on I think the thing?s doomed to failure.

[/quote]

I have been a great supporter of the idea of merging BCRA and NCA into a single common national body, but I'm still waiting for this to happen truly. The present takeover of the public face of British caving by a primarily sporting and 'political' body, essentially the NCA with individual membership added on - whereas the public face of British caving had previously been fronted by cave science - shows that Tony Jarratt's comment, as recalled by Alan Jeffreys at last year's Hidden Earth conference, "We may have seen the best of British caving", currently still holds sway.

Of course people are going to join and contribute to a charity, willingly and voluntarily, providing the charity upholds activities and principles which people are happy to be part of and support. But whoever heard of a non charity attempting to take over the assets of a charity and tell its members (wrongly) that they're no longer members of the charity? When the AA - an association of members - was taken over by a private limited company all the full members (including myself) were paid at least ?100 for the privilege: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Automobile_Association

People like Alex are to be commiserated with, but it would appear at present only to the extent that no one else in British caving appears to have seen fit to say "Boo!" to a goose.

If you feel 'outraged' enough to shout me down, first take a look at 'Caves & Caving' 91 Autumn/Winter 2001 to see how I feel it should be done. Caves are a precious resource and everybody involved in visiting and exploring them should be helped and encouraged to learn about them and treat them as a time capsule of scientific knowledge, to be recorded, studied and reported upon. For my own personal example of how exploration can be reported from the adventure side, see: 'Descent' 61 November 1984 pp 17-24; and from the scientific point of view, see: 'Caves & Caving' 27 February 1985 pp 3-9. If you think you know better let us see what examples you can put forward for arguing to the contrary - perhaps that caves and caving should be treated as a physical recreation first and foremost?

All this hot air about what people are going to discover, before anything has actually happened, and how caves must be 'conserved' before exploration is going to be permitted, shows just to what extent people have currently become 'out of touch' with the true essence of cave exploration and how the real plot has actually been lost - probably by those who never understood it in the first place, who perhaps prefer blocking or challenging in a non-constructive fashion the productive efforts of others?

So, I don't think Alex is being at all naive to object to the current status quo.

 

[NigR]

If you want to encourage anyone to make their views known for whatever reason, then suggesting that their views will be ignored is hardly an encouragement.

Far better to be honest and realistic about this than to encourage false expectations, don't you think?

What is becoming increasingly clear to me (of course I may be wrong, but I can only tell you how it seems) is that you are playing politics.

Not playing politics at all, that's not my style. In any case, what's the point when you've no chance of winning?

Yes, I'm working to change things within a political system (PDCMG) but that's only because we (the Garimpeiros) are a part of the system and have been from the outset. As such, I currently feel obliged to operate within the limits and constraints imposed by this system. I do have grave doubts about belonging to a system that is so inherently flawed and it greatly concerns me that by so doing we may be giving it a creedence it does not justly deserve. Having spoken to the representative of another club immediately prior to the last meeting, I now realise I am not alone on this score.

 

[graham]

Clive

There is much in that post that requires comment, but that would take too long and probably go too far off topic! One thing I will say is that in my experience many UK cavers would agree that our caves are a valuable resource, but will have a completely different understanding of quite what that means. That serious lack of consensus as to how we actually use (or treat depending on your POV) our caves will mean that one the one hand that there will rarely be be a consensus over access conditions as so many cavers will continue to believe that the one threat that they need to protect caves from is other cavers.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Far better to be honest and realistic about this than to encourage false expectations, don't you think?

.....

Not playing politics at all, that's not my style. In any case, what's the point when you've no chance of winning?

Any campaign that has no expectations of succeeding is doomed to failure.

 

[menacer]

A UK Caving poll would not be representative of the UK's cavers, just those that are on UK Caving.

Which is a far broader spectrum of types of caver than those cavers who say attend Committee meetings all the time.

It could equally be argued that agms are not representive of the caving community as well, as its generally the staunch politicians that go to them with the arguement "well you could attend"

So we have the reverse side of the coin here, a caving community open to all - including those who could join in on topic but choose not too.

I believe the thoughts of cavers on this forum do have a place, as Fleur stated in her original post, but with all the bickering how many are actually going to get a voice or just be put of by the whole thing like poor Alex (not meant to be a derogatory statement alex i know how you feel).

 

[NigR]

A poll of 2 questions:

I am happy for a 2nd entrance to exist.

or

I am not happy for a 2nd entrance to exist.

Menacer,

Why not conduct such a poll within the clubs (WCC & CPC) you belong to? Granted, it might take a bit of time and effort to organise but it would be most interesting to see the results.

Perhaps cavers in other clubs could do the same? The results could then be posted on here for all to see.

In actual fact, our Garimpeiro members were all asked a similar question prior to the recent meeting. As you might expect, 100% were in favour of your first option (happy for a second entrance to exist).

 

[Peter Burgess]

Which is a far broader spectrum of types of caver than those cavers who say attend Committee meetings all the time.

It could equally be argued that agms are not representive of the caving community as well, as its generally the staunch politicians that go to them with the arguement "well you could attend"

So we have the reverse side of the coin here, a caving community open to all - including those who could join in on topic but choose not too.

I believe the thoughts of cavers on this forum do have a place, as Fleur stated in her original post, but with all the bickering how many are actually going to get a voice or just be put of by the whole thing like poor Alex (not meant to be a derogatory statement alex i know how you feel).

Which makes me wonder how many of the UKCaving populace are on the governing body of any kind of caving organisation - club, regional body or national body. I'll set up a poll to find out. Then we will need another poll to find out what proportion of UKCaving members don't respond to polls, and how many of those are on a committee or not....  :-[

 

[NigR]

Reading posts like this makes me bloody glad I dont belong to any of the big clubs, if this is what they are like. I can see why the club I belong to formed, specifically to get away from this sort of thing. which to my eyes looks like just arguing for arguing sake.

Alex,

I totally agree - this is all bollocks really.

Let's get back to proper caving.

If you are ever down in South Wales and fancy coming along to do some real digging (whether it be creating another way into Draenen, discovering a back way into Craig-ar-Ffynnon or forging the Daren - Craig-ar-Ffynnon connection) you would be most welcome. Just pm me.

 

[graham]

Alternatively Alex could join a team digging to find unexplored cave.

 

[NigR]

Alternatively Alex could join a team digging to find unexplored cave.

Thanks, Graham - just the response I was hoping for.

Why do you think I mentioned those three?

 

[Alex]

I would to do that with you Nig. I am off to spain now for a little while doing some caving there. Would love to join some time after I get back in Wales!

Very greatful for the offer.

 

[NigR]

Cheers, Alex.

Will send you a pm.

 

[graham]

Alternatively Alex could join a team digging to find unexplored cave.

Thanks, Graham - just the response I was hoping for.

Why do you think I mentioned those three?

I thought that if you went to all that trouble to give a set up that it would have been a shame to disappoint you.