Extraordinary Meeting of the PDCMG

[Alkapton]

If you are ever down in South Wales and fancy coming along to do some real digging (whether it be creating another way into Draenen, discovering a back way into Craig-ar-Ffynnon or forging the Daren - Craig-ar-Ffynnon connection) you would be most welcome. Just pm me.

With all this enthusiasm it is remarkable how many people all rushed to open up new passage I can actually see.  (see my thread in Digging)  Exactly 0 people volenterd, though I did get a 'good luck' message.    Oh well, by Tuesday night I'll be able to tell everyone how much passage there is.

NigR:  I'd love to do some digging with you - but at this moment in time I would not be interested in digging for another entrance to Draenen.  Why?  Draenen is on private land, access is by permission of the landowners, piss them off and they will withdraw permission and there is nothing you, me or any comittee can do about it.  I don't know how an entrance on someone elses land would work or even if one is possible.

Yesterday I went into Draenen for the first time.  Awesome experience!  Marred only by the fact I had to be 'rescued'.  The entrance is OK, just I'm not a great climber and had been told I did not need SRT, so I assumed I did not need ladder either...  So when I try to get out I have to wait while my more able butty went off to fetch me an SRT kit so I could get out...  My own fault, I should have refused to climb down a knotted rope 

I only went as far as Tea Junction but this is one hell of a cave - I'll be back and each time I get somewhere new the thrill will be just as intense.  I just don't see the need for another entrance except on grounds of rescue.

I've seen surveys of Aggy and Dranen on survex.  I see how close they are in one place - just 50 meters ?  I don't know if the formations mentioned above are in that area.  However joining the two systems would make for some awesome trips IMHO.

 

[Ship-badger]

I've seen surveys of Aggy and Dranen on survex.   I see how close they are in one place - just 50 meters ?   I don't know if the formations mentioned above are in that area.   However joining the two systems would make for some awesome trips IMHO.

I'm asuming you mean Daren Cilau in the quote above. So if the two caves were joined, then each cave would now have two entrances (well four actually), and I'm assuming you think that is ok. What if a dig in a small cave connected into Draenen; would that be ok in your view? How big does a cave have to be to become a "connected" cave, rather than an additional entrance?

With regard to a survey of peoples opinions, I am circulating one amongst members of our Club. I shall post the results here when I have them. I also think that it might make for a lively and interesting debate at this year's Hidden Earth.

 

[Duncan Price]

I've seen surveys of Aggy and Dranen on survex.   I see how close they are in one place - just 50 meters ?   I don't know if the formations mentioned above are in that area.   However joining the two systems would make for some awesome trips IMHO.

I'm asuming you mean Daren Cilau in the quote above. So if the two caves were joined, then each cave would now have two entrances (well four actually), and I'm assuming you think that is ok.

<pedant>Agen Allwedd has two entrances - Agen Allwedd (1950) & Ogof Gam (1951).  Daren Cilau has four entrances: Ogof Daren Cilau (1963), Elm Hole (1986), Pwll-y-Cwm (1993) and Ogof Cnwc (2002).</pedant>

What if a dig in a small cave connected into Draenen; would that be ok in your view? How big does a cave have to be to become a "connected" cave, rather than an additional entrance?

What is the minimum length for a dig to be a cave?

Daren Cilau is much closer to Agen Allwedd than the 50 m quoted - possibly less than 5 m.

 

[Clive G]

I've seen surveys of Aggy and Dranen on survex.   I see how close they are in one place - just 50 meters ?   I don't know if the formations mentioned above are in that area.   However joining the two systems would make for some awesome trips IMHO.

I'm asuming you mean Daren Cilau in the quote above. So if the two caves were joined, then each cave would now have two entrances (well four actually), and I'm assuming you think that is ok.

<pedant>Agen Allwedd has two entrances - Agen Allwedd (1950) & Ogof Gam (1951).  Daren Cilau has four entrances: Ogof Daren Cilau (1963), Elm Hole (1986), Pwll-y-Cwm (1993) and Ogof Cnwc (2002).</pedant>

. . .

Agen Allwedd was discovered and first dug in 1946; then first entered for any distance in 1949. The first recorded exploration of Ogof Gam took place in 1946. Ogof Gam was connected to Agen Allwedd in 1951.

(Ogof) Daren Cilau was discovered in 1957 and first entered for any distance in 1958.

Elm Hole was discovered and explored in 1961; it was shown to be connected to Daren Cilau by diving exploration in 1986.

Pwll y Cwm was first dived in 1961 and the connection through to the Daren Cilau Terminal Sump was first dug open in 1993. It may or may not be open at present - it is a 'periodic entrance'. [All credit to Duncan for making this happen.]

Price's Dig or Ogof Cnwc was discovered in 1950 and first entered as a cave in 1961; the connection into Busman's Holiday in Daren Cilau was made in 2002, but this sumped closed within a month - the current all-weather accessible connection was dug open in 2008.

'PEDANT': "a person who relies too much on academic learning or who is concerned chiefly with insignificant detail."

I suppose getting the dates wrong could be regarded as insignificant detail, but the fact of the discoveries being made at all, and whether the connections are viable routes or are impassable is not insignificant - since without the caves actually existing everyone would be wasting their time in this forum.

The salient point seems to me to be: "Caves are where (and when) you find them" . . .

 

[graham]

"Caves Are When You Find Them"

Zen Speleology

 

[Huge]

Off topic I know, but....

Daren Cilau is much closer to Agen Allwedd than the 50 m quoted - possibly less than 5 m.

Is this at the Against All Odds choke?

The closest, non diving, points in the system that I can think of would be the end of Rio Dreamo (off Sick Parrot Chamber) in Aggy to Suicide Choke at the end of Up-Dweeb in Daren. The gap here must be about 15m.

Or are the Illes Inlet extensions still being pushed and getting very close to a connection? That could explain why the Willerups' site has been quiet on the subject for months now!

 

[NigR]

With regard to a survey of peoples opinions, I am circulating one amongst members of our Club. I shall post the results here when I have them. I also think that it might make for a lively and interesting debate at this year's Hidden Earth.

Will await the results of your poll with interest.

Regarding a debate at Hidden Earth, I won't be there myself but I've had a chat with our Club Representative on the PDCMG (who will be attending) and he thinks it is a good idea too.

What is the minimum length for a dig to be a cave?

Don't know about minimum length (or depth?) but I've always called a surface dig a 'dig' when you can look back (or up) towards the entrance and see at least a glimmer of daylight. Once you are completely out of sight of daylight it becomes a cave. It can still be a dig, but it is a cave dig not a surface dig. That's my definition anyway.

Price's Dig or Ogof Cnwc was discovered in 1950 and first entered as a cave in 1961; the connection into Busman's Holiday in Daren Cilau was made in 2002, but this sumped closed within a month - the current all-weather accessible connection was dug open in 2008.

I suppose getting the dates wrong could be regarded as insignificant detail, but the fact of the discoveries being made at all, and whether the connections are viable routes or are impassable is not insignificant......

In that case it is probably worth pointing out that the current all-weather connection was first opened up early in 2008 (around March I think) but was initially only a viable route for extremely small cavers. It was enlarged to its present dimensions (passable by anyone) in August 2008.

 

[Duncan Price]

Or are the Illes Inlet extensions still being pushed and getting very close to a connection? That could explain why the Willerups' site has been quiet on the subject for months now!

No they are not.

Thanks to Clive G for correcting me on dates - I got them from the Appendix 1 in "Darkworld".  The chronology is relevant to this topic as it shows the time for thse things to pass.

Like it or not, one day another cave will connect with Draenen.  Although the connention of the Llangattock caves is a bit stop-start, I'm sure that when it happens it will be seen as an achievement (mixed I'm sure - a classic through trip, conservation disaster and rescue nightmare).  It's more a case of managing the situation which is where we come back to the original topic.

 

[NigR]

Like it or not, one day another cave will connect with Draenen. 

Exactly. This is bound to happen (and may have already done so). Surely even the most die-hard obstructionists must one day accept this as harsh reality no matter how much they may dislike it.

Although the connention of the Llangattock caves is a bit stop-start, I'm sure that when it happens it will be seen as an achievement (mixed I'm sure - a classic through trip, conservation disaster and rescue nightmare).  It's more a case of managing the situation which is where we come back to the original topic.

This is the root cause of the problem.

If someone goes digging at Llangattock in order to further exploration and extend the known caves they are encouraged to do so, regardless of whether or not a connection between some of those caves may result.

If someone goes digging at Pwll Du and there is even the remotest possibility that their work may result in connecting any of the caves they are actively discouraged from even starting.

Consequently, if you dig at Llangattock you feel happy enough to tell other people what you are doing. It is fairly safe to assume that should your efforts be successful they will not be wasted. If a connection results it may ultimately have to be managed (for example, gated) but it won't be destroyed (well, not unless Parker comes back!).

Such is not the case at Pwll Du. If you connect any of the caves over there, even if you find new passage in between, you cannot tell anyone about it. Based on past experience, you know full well that all your efforts will have been in vain and your work will be destroyed (filled-in). Hence the current situation where there is an all-pervading air of secrecy and mistrust. Let's be honest here - the controlling access body (PDCMG) hasn't got the faintest idea what is really going on. New passage is being found and surveyed, yet goes unreported. Trips to certain parts of the cave take place on a regular basis, yet they are not recorded in the logbook. There is something very wrong here.

Does anyone, active cave digger or not, really believe that the situation at Pwll Du is healthier than at Llangattock?

I certainly don't. I think it stinks and I hate it.

 

[Alkapton]

I'm asuming you mean Daren Cilau in the quote above. So if the two caves were joined, then each cave would now have two entrances (well four actually), and I'm assuming you think that is ok. What if a dig in a small cave connected into Draenen; would that be ok in your view? How big does a cave have to be to become a "connected" cave, rather than an additional entrance?

If a dig in a small cave connects to Draenen then either it is on Draenen's owners land and they have given their permission for the dig and thereby by default their permission for a second entrance, or it is on someone elses land.  My concern over a second entrance really revolves around the manner in which the landowner(s) wishes seem to be disregarded by some people.  Sometimes this has the effect on me that I'm more anti second entrance than I would otherwise be.    Just having cavers in a cave has a detremental effect on formations that does not mean we must all stop caving in caves with formations.  It does I think mean where there are very special formations access should be restricted either by taping or other means.  Off hand I forget, there is a cave (or is it just a passage with formations) by here you can only visit on bank holidays - nobody complains about that.  I don't know the full argument about Draenen on grounds of conservation.  I am aware it is officially classed as a wilderness area because of the remotness of some passage.  That means it is a very special environment that needs preserving and concerving.    I don't know enougth about Draenen or how other entrances would affect it.  I veer towards caution for once you have damaged such a delicate environment as a cave you cannot put things right again.

I think I'm saying I don't know enougth to know if other entrances are good, or more importantly if they are bad for the cave.  So perhaps I'm hypocritical about Draenen?  It is a 'special' cave, it deserves special treatment....  But don't they all? 

I've stoped making sense even to myself... its bedtime!

 

[pete_the_caver]

I'm assuming you mean Daren Cilau in the quote above. So if the two caves were joined, then each cave would now have two entrances (well four actually), and I'm assuming you think that is ok. What if a dig in a small cave connected into Draenen; would that be ok in your view? How big does a cave have to be to become a "connected" cave, rather than an additional entrance?

If a dig in a small cave connects to Draenen then either it is on Draenen's owners land and they have given their permission for the dig and thereby by default their permission for a second entrance, or it is on someone elses land.   

So what if the cave connected to Draenen were a SSSI? Would digging ever be permissible and what sanctions would be taken against those who dug it illegally in the first place?

 

[pete_the_caver]

 Off hand I forget, there is a cave (or is it just a passage with formations) by here you can only visit on bank holidays - nobody complains about that.   
[/quote]

That sounds like OFD, and it does raise the question of gating sections of Draenen.   If a good long hard through trip were possible (and I don't mean the current capped second entrance; this would be like a 5 minute walk to the corner shop for a pint of milk) then should parts of the cave be gated to keep them remote and protected?

 

[Peter Burgess]

 Off hand I forget, there is a cave (or is it just a passage with formations) by here you can only visit on bank holidays - nobody complains about that.   

I immediately thought of the Columns, in Ffynnon Ddu as well.

 

[NigR]

My concern over a second entrance really revolves around the manner in which the landowner(s) wishes seem to be disregarded by some people.   

Chris,

Please stop perpetuating the myth that the landowners are opposed to further entrances because this is simply not true. By doing so you are merely adding substance to the lies that have been spread over the years.

The landowners are not against the concept of further entrances and never have been. They were told by the PDCMG that other entrances were not desirable and, because of their fears over liability, had no option other than to agree.

Prior to the recent meeting, consultation with the landowners took place. They are happy for cavers to discuss the current entrance policy amongst themselves and then get back to them once a concensus has been reached.

It is cavers who are responsible for the current situation, not the landowners.

I would suggest that you might like to consider contacting the Conservation and Access Officer for Cambrian Caving Council directly (contact details on CCC website or I can pm you her telephone number). She has been in constant liaison with the landowners and will hopefully be able to put your concerns to rest.

 

[Alkapton]

I am not trying to perpetuate a myth.  I'm saying how things appear to me to be.

Last Saturday was the first time I visited Draenen.  It was also the first time for my buttie Rob.  We had completely failed to find the ammo box on the pub wall, despite walking past it at least twice.  I know there is an intention to move it into the cave entrance and mistakenly thought it had been moved so we proceeded to locate the cave.

We found the style with "Private, members of PDCMG only" sign on it and thought ourselves to be on the right track.  A very little further and Rob tells me a woman is shouting at us telling us we are on private land.  Being slightly deaf I can't hear a thing, so I opt to take no immediate notice - I'm not going to get myself into a shouting match where I can't hear the other person.  As we continue we are getting closer to the lady, for she is also comming towards us.  She and I guess her husband live in the farm house nearest the cave entrance.  We get to a kinda hedge and Rob is obviously worried because she is still saying something and I still can't hear a word so I make it obvious I can't hear a word - eventually I'm face to face with her.  If you will excuse horribly mixed metaphors - her feathers were ruffled and her hackles were up.  She made it very obvious we are on private land.  I explain we are cavers looking for Draenen.  She wanted to know what club we belong to.  I tell her Cwmbran CC.  She reitterates we are on private land and that we can only follow the path we are on with permission, and says that they do allow cavers access.  She wanted to know if I had used the log book.  I said I hadn't been able to find it, I know there is talk of moving it to the cave entrance and perhaps it has already been moved.  She was most interested in the fact there is talk of moving the log book, said nobody had told her there is an intention to move it (at Extaordinary Meeting of the PDCMG I think it was decided to move the log book) and that in any case the log book cannot be moved without {her} permission.  She explained to me how to find the log book and made certain that I immediately turn back to fill it in.  At some point she shouted back to a gentleman who was also concerned about our presence there.  The whole converstation was polite.

This 'confrontation' (strong word, perhaps too strong) tells me at least two things.  1) The locals, ie. the landowner(s), are watching the cave closely, it was no later than 9:00am when this took place.  They seem very concerned.  It is as though they have had trouble and are expecting more trouble.  Whilst not actually hostile they are not exactly welcoming either.  They are 'on guard' and there has to be some reason for that attitude.
2) The landowner(s) are not where they should be in the information loop.  It seems wrong to me that the PDCMG can decide to move the log book without consulting the landowner(s) if it is the case that landowner permission is needed to move it.  I think what should have happened is that when it was first decided it might be a good idea to to move the log book to consult the landowner(s) first,  before raising the matter formally at a meeting.  That way they would not learn from an 'outsider' of the intention to move the log book and so perhaps percieve themselves to be out of the information loop.

There seems very little difference to me in the way the landowner(s) have been treated over the log book, and the way they seem to be being treated over the second entrance.  Landowner(s) permission is the ultimate deciding factor.  We cannot make decisions without their permission.  From above it seems all the viable 'second entrances' are on the same owner(s) land.  The landowner(s) should not be the last to hear of any proposed changes over the cave they should be the first to hear.  It is only polite to be that way.

I want to see happy landowner(s) who are pleased that cavers visit Draenen and care about the land it is on.  I do not want to see landowner(s) who treat cavers with suspicion and fear/concern over the way they treat the area.

Right now I'm going to feel I am on egg shells every time I go near Draenen, things do need to be made better.

 

[NigR]

Chris,

Why don't you do as I have previously suggested and contact Elsie Little (Cambrian Caving Council Conservation and Access Officer) directly? She can then tell you the current situation regarding relations with the landowners and their position in the information loop.

As you have clearly either not read, not understood or just totally ignored what I have previously written then I suppose I'll have to say it again. I'll keep it simple. The landowners were consulted prior to the recent meeting. The landowners are not opposed to the concept of other entrances to the system so long as such entrances are properly managed and they (the landowners) are covered so far as liability is concerned. They are aware that discussions are taking place amongst the caving community regarding a possible revision of the policy regarding further entrances. They are happy for cavers to discuss this issue and to then get back to them with whatever is ultimately decided. Obviously, this decision cannot be implemented without the permission of the landowners and if there is any aspect they are not happy with it will have to be modified. You are quite correct when you say that 'Landowner(s) permission is the ultimate deciding factor.' However, you are wrong when you say 'We cannot make decisions without their permission' because they have already given us this permission. Again, should you (or anyone else) doubt what I am saying then just phone Elsie and see what she says - after all, it's her job to deal with this, not mine.

Regarding your unfortunate 'confrontation' prior to your trip last Saturday, you have my sympathies. However, you can hardly blame the landowners for being suspicious if they see a couple of guys in caving gear wandering around who don't seem to know where they are going. There have been problems (not just recently) with cavers visiting the cave who should not have been there, hence their insistence that your trip should be recorded in the logbook. Again, the chief concern of the landowners is for your safety and their possible liability should anything go wrong whilst you are in the cave. Add to that the fact that they are still probably not too happy over people taking a shit in front of their kitchen window and you can understand why they may appear non too welcoming. I agree it is not ideal but, as Fleur has rightly pointed out, we all need to be on our best behaviour in order to help things improve.

 

[pete_the_caver]

This 'confrontation' (strong word, perhaps too strong) tells me at least two things.   1) The locals, ie. the landowner(s), are watching the cave closely, it was no later than 9:00am when this took place.   They seem very concerned.   It is as though they have had trouble and are expecting more trouble.  Whilst not actually hostile they are not exactly welcoming either.   They are 'on guard' and there has to be some reason for that attitude.

This observation a quite correct.  What some of you don't seem to realise is that what locals say to cavers is not the same as what they say amongst themselves.  Perhaps some of you should have a chat to the locals who are or who have been cavers but not to the knowledge of other Pwll Du locals.  These (ex)cavers can sit in the pub and glean a lot of information... The locals are very unhappy.

 

[Ship-badger]

[ The locals are very unhappy.

What are they unhappy about?

 

[graham]

[ The locals are very unhappy.

What are they unhappy about?

Not sure, does Whitlackington live there?  :doubt: He's always unhappy.  :blink:

 

[NigR]

What are they unhappy about?

I'd like to know the answer to this too.

Perhaps if the situation really is as bad as pete_the_caver and Alkapton make out it would be a good idea to get another entrance (number four, or it could be five, depending on how soon it is found) on land belonging to someone else as quickly as possible.

Anyone fancy going digging?