First aid kit
- Thread starter SamT
- Start date
AndyF
New member
I think most first aid kits are not worth carrying if they contain a triangular bandage some asprins and saftey pin. They can't deal with anything that wouldn't be better dealt with by bringing the patient to the surface.
When on remote trips abroad I carry:-
Painkillers:- Ominpon self administered army issue. This is a opiate based drug designed for sticking in soliders when shot. It comes in a syringe type thing that can be stuck through wetsuits or oversuits and sends you to happy-land..... you can't buy it in Boots though. Keeps people quiet while you move them. Self administered so they can't sue you...
Big roll sticky tape: For wrapping round an open wound to keep it shut while you move the casualty.
Hartman's Saline + intravenous drip for replacing lost fluid.
That's about it. One could take more but I figure the most likely thing you will be faced with is a broken bone or wound (or both yuk!), and these give you SOME chance of improving the situation and gaining time..
When on remote trips abroad I carry:-
Painkillers:- Ominpon self administered army issue. This is a opiate based drug designed for sticking in soliders when shot. It comes in a syringe type thing that can be stuck through wetsuits or oversuits and sends you to happy-land..... you can't buy it in Boots though. Keeps people quiet while you move them. Self administered so they can't sue you...
Big roll sticky tape: For wrapping round an open wound to keep it shut while you move the casualty.
Hartman's Saline + intravenous drip for replacing lost fluid.
That's about it. One could take more but I figure the most likely thing you will be faced with is a broken bone or wound (or both yuk!), and these give you SOME chance of improving the situation and gaining time..
SamT
Moderator
Two opposing opinions above there.
My view is similar to andys. There is nothing in a first aid kit that would be of any real help in an accident underground. Nearly everything in a normal first aid kit is based upon keeping infection out of wounds. bandages/plasters/gauze/wipes etc etc etc. All of these things would be rendered hopless within seconds of breaking open the seal in a cave (have you ever tried getting/keeping your hands clean and dry in a cave).
we were given an off the record chat by a member of a local rescue service about underground first aid. Their view was that if you were adamant on taking something underground then a plastic bag and small roll of gaffa tape would be the two most usefull things.
As andy mentioned - I can only think of two main injuries that may occure that you could actually do something about - Broken bone and sereious wound (cut/gash).
A serious bleed needs to be stemmed - this can be done with any material available (balaclava) the placcy back can be placed over this in a vain attempt to keep water/mud/grit out. then leather in gaffatape and apply pressure/elevate.
with broken bones - splints can be improvised (tackle bags/crowbar) and again plastered in gaffatape).
most other things, heart attacks/diabetics/strokes etc etc will not be helped by having a first aid kit about you.
I havent mentioned hypothermia - cause again this would not be treatable with a first aid kit - and you should be carrying other things as a matter of course to help with this (balaclava/pocket bivvy bag).
My view is similar to andys. There is nothing in a first aid kit that would be of any real help in an accident underground. Nearly everything in a normal first aid kit is based upon keeping infection out of wounds. bandages/plasters/gauze/wipes etc etc etc. All of these things would be rendered hopless within seconds of breaking open the seal in a cave (have you ever tried getting/keeping your hands clean and dry in a cave).
we were given an off the record chat by a member of a local rescue service about underground first aid. Their view was that if you were adamant on taking something underground then a plastic bag and small roll of gaffa tape would be the two most usefull things.
As andy mentioned - I can only think of two main injuries that may occure that you could actually do something about - Broken bone and sereious wound (cut/gash).
A serious bleed needs to be stemmed - this can be done with any material available (balaclava) the placcy back can be placed over this in a vain attempt to keep water/mud/grit out. then leather in gaffatape and apply pressure/elevate.
with broken bones - splints can be improvised (tackle bags/crowbar) and again plastered in gaffatape).
most other things, heart attacks/diabetics/strokes etc etc will not be helped by having a first aid kit about you.
I havent mentioned hypothermia - cause again this would not be treatable with a first aid kit - and you should be carrying other things as a matter of course to help with this (balaclava/pocket bivvy bag).
D
Dave H
Guest
Two Tampons and a roll of Gaffa Tape.
Most cuts can be dealt with better by the two Tampons (unwrapped), rather than the balaclava SamT mentioned and they fit neatly inside the roll of tape.
It's also great to see the look on teenage lads faces when you show the 'first aid kit' to them :twisted:
BTW. I used to look after the Tambrands warehousing computers and had the 'pleasure' of being shown round their R&D lab. The ladies (all the staff in there are female) take great pleasure in taking male visitors round, including the absorbency test area where they use red dye!
Most cuts can be dealt with better by the two Tampons (unwrapped), rather than the balaclava SamT mentioned and they fit neatly inside the roll of tape.
It's also great to see the look on teenage lads faces when you show the 'first aid kit' to them :twisted:
BTW. I used to look after the Tambrands warehousing computers and had the 'pleasure' of being shown round their R&D lab. The ladies (all the staff in there are female) take great pleasure in taking male visitors round, including the absorbency test area where they use red dye!
Johnny
New member
Dave H said:including the absorbency test area where they use red dye!
Nice!
Tampons do sound like a good idea though. I dont bother carrying anything but have been contemplating putting some gaffa tape in by Darren Drum as I have a huge ammount of respect for the guy who gave this piece of advice;-
Sam T said:
cap n chris
Well-known member
Generally I don't carry a FAK any more since in over 8 years there's never been any cause to need one; however, there have been many occasions where grit gets into eyes so I always carry my little sterile squeezy plastic water pods (available from Tesco pharmacy and pretty much everywhere BTW). Seems anything else likely to need attention can be a make-do botch jobbie with whatever's available among the group. Most "injuries" are bruises which you just ignore and get on with things.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Sound mega-useful for expeditions - where do you get it? how much?
Sewer Rat
New member
I always have a roll of Gaffa tape, 1 small pack of (pocket size tissues)
and a tinfoil blanket ,all fit into the gaffa tape in the bottom of my darren drum.
I Severly cut myself about twice a month at work Gaffa tape and tissue is tried and tested(not out of attention seeking)
Cant say i have ever broken bones or done anything that nasty, so the whole horse tranquilizer thing seem a bit extreme.
and a tinfoil blanket ,all fit into the gaffa tape in the bottom of my darren drum.
I Severly cut myself about twice a month at work Gaffa tape and tissue is tried and tested(not out of attention seeking)
Cant say i have ever broken bones or done anything that nasty, so the whole horse tranquilizer thing seem a bit extreme.
paul
Moderator
SamT said:
Of course you are correct - I wasn't really talking about a first aid kit as purchased at Boots or wherever. I meant it really is a good idea that somebody in a group going underground has some sort of kit to deal with cuts, bleeding, providing prevention of exposure in case of an accident, etc. What you describe above would fit the bill better than the usual items found in a shop-bought first ais kit.
SamT said:
A single Aspirin is ideal in the case of heart attack. If a diabetic has a hypoglycaemia Mars Bar or other form of sugar would be useful (unless unconscious).
As well as carrying various items in case of some medical problem or accident it is probably more important to also carry the knowledge in your head by getting some basic First Aid training of what to do in an accident.
SamT
Moderator
Ive heard that those shiny blankets are just a bit too lightweight in a cave - they just get shredded withing seconds of removal from packet.
I carry one of these in my chest pocket of my warmbac at all times
They are like a huge sandwich bag - used it one a couple of times. They are one use only but just a bit more durable than the tin foil things.
I carry one of these in my chest pocket of my warmbac at all times
They are like a huge sandwich bag - used it one a couple of times. They are one use only but just a bit more durable than the tin foil things.
cap n chris
Well-known member
I have one of those large orange survival sacks which can lay flat in a tackle bag or be wrapped around inside a wellie* or even worn inside the back of your oversuit - depending on your preference!
* Apparently ... although I've never been able to do this.
* Apparently ... although I've never been able to do this.
D
Dave H
Guest
I used to cave with a diabetic who carried a full kit with him underground (well actually, I usually carried it! - he always carried the sandwiches) He trained us in what to do at the various stages - including using the syringes. He had a small pot of jam in the kit and reconned that we could rub it around over his teeth/gums if he was too far gone to eat it sensibly himself but not unconcious (the instruction was not to jab him unless he was unconcious!) Lukily, I never got the chance to use the kit on him.paul said:
Cave_Troll
Active member
if he was _expecting_ to use all this, then thats probably the wrong approach to take. even if it was "just in case" probably better off making sure he dosn;t go under, in much the same way that you make sure you don't crash your car on the way to the cave.
if a diabetic becomes unconcious due to hypoglyceamia, this is a medical emercency.
injecting Glucagon _might_ bring them round. but once around they need seriously large amounts of carbohydrate and really shoudln';t do anything like driving for about 24 hours.
the current recomended treatment for a "normal" hypo (ie the patient has a BG of < 4 mmol/l) is 20g of refined carbohydrate. an unconcious one will require more( once you've got them back)
bearing in mind that excercise increases the body's sensitivty to insulin (ie the same amount of insulin will have more effect.) it may require more. to prevent a reoccourance, more complex carbs (other than poure sugar) should also be given
Prevention is much better than cure in these cases. Running a little high for the duration of the trip is going to cause less damage than falling unconcious. good breakfast, reduce morning insulin and keep snacking as required. learn to recognise your signs and symptons of a hypo and possibly seek advice from your diabetic doc / nurse
NEVER INJECT INSULIN INTO AN UNCONCIOUS DIABETIC
"hypostop" is less breakable than pots of jam, although i have seen squeezy packs (rather like the sports packs of lucozade)
if a diabetic becomes unconcious due to hypoglyceamia, this is a medical emercency.
injecting Glucagon _might_ bring them round. but once around they need seriously large amounts of carbohydrate and really shoudln';t do anything like driving for about 24 hours.
the current recomended treatment for a "normal" hypo (ie the patient has a BG of < 4 mmol/l) is 20g of refined carbohydrate. an unconcious one will require more( once you've got them back)
bearing in mind that excercise increases the body's sensitivty to insulin (ie the same amount of insulin will have more effect.) it may require more. to prevent a reoccourance, more complex carbs (other than poure sugar) should also be given
Prevention is much better than cure in these cases. Running a little high for the duration of the trip is going to cause less damage than falling unconcious. good breakfast, reduce morning insulin and keep snacking as required. learn to recognise your signs and symptons of a hypo and possibly seek advice from your diabetic doc / nurse
NEVER INJECT INSULIN INTO AN UNCONCIOUS DIABETIC
"hypostop" is less breakable than pots of jam, although i have seen squeezy packs (rather like the sports packs of lucozade)
T
twllddu
Guest
gaffa tape and survival bags are excellent ideas, but there's one very important item missing from this discussion and that is the competence and knowledge of the individuals concerned.
how many of us have up to date First Aid training and are actually prepared to use it in anger ?
how many of us have up to date First Aid training and are actually prepared to use it in anger ?
