Fod Chairman implys c**tplaces damaged a gate and sprayed it

[Mine Explorer]

Whilst I can understand someone wanting to double check matters, I'm afriad from the "outside world" it gives a slightly different appearance.

Root came to this board somewhat indignant that members of his discussion group had been implicated in the damage of the mine entrance. Understandably he stated that they had not been involved and took exception to the implication. Looking at the website in question it is exceedingly easy to see why the implication has been made.

A whole string of subsequent comments made by Root on this website were at total odds to what was present on the Darkplaces website. Finally when I ask how he can be so certain the subscribers to his forum weren't involved he then appeared to go away and ask them. I'd have thought he might have double checked this little fact before starting the thread.

We are now left in the slightly puzzling situation where the whole thread was intended to wind up the FoD caving club, yet Root is surprised and indignant when the chairman of the FoD caving club has been wound up by the Darkplaces website!

Despite various puzzling questions coming to light I'm quickly getting tired finding inconstancies with what's being said and what is published on the Darkplaces website. As far as I'm concerned Root (and his membership) have stated they had nothing to do with the damage. I can see no evidence they did and despite some puzzling questions I have no reason to belive either Root or his membership aren't telling the truth.

Your intention was to wind up FoD caving club - you suceeded, well done!


I'm off to the pub for a meal!

Cheerio,
Mine X.

 

[cap n chris]

Mr. Darkplaces (page 1 of this thread) quoted me:-

"cap 'n chris wrote: On his site, Mr. Darkplaces wrote:

I am sure there are people out there who go out and intend to cause damage for no particular purpose, do these people then take pictures of this then publish them on their websites for all to see?"

Yes."

- To which Mr. Darkplaces then added:-

"I would strongly disaggree with that. Vandals who would spray paint would not take a picture and post it publicly using a well known forum name. It would be rare atleast".

Ok then (perhaps not in a forum but on an underground exploration website nonetheless) - check out this link for some pictures of Mr. H**** B****** and his lovely mates breaking into a site - there's a good one of C***** with a sledgehammer breaking down the wall, don't you think? Criminal damage, perhaps?

http://tunneling.irational.org/united_kingdom/bristol/observatory_hill_cave_ST56667324/

Mr. Darkplaces also added (my emphasis):-

"Do I condone ilegal activity? Fine line here, I dont proxy anything, just provide a way of people fed up with over bearing groups to explore local or not so local areas and chat about it, share pics etc etc. Sometimes you dont need a club or insurence to wander about that mine or quarry (or abandonded mental hospital) which has been open for years, just down the road. I think some organisations are over restrictive in the access policy and this directly results in (normally locals) breaking in to take a look at what all the fuss is about. "

A QUESTION FOR YOU: a) Over bearing groups. Such as, please?

AN OBSERVATION FOR YOU: b) To suggest for one moment that because of over restriction people break in to look at what all the fuss is about is a twisted joke. People can only break in, by definition, to somewhere which is restricted. According to this line of logic people drive at 100+mph on purpose simply because there is a speed limit. Pardon my french but this is absolute b*ll**ks. People drive fast/break into sites because they want to and, when doing so, know that it is a criminal act.

I believe that Mr. Darkplaces and his followers just cannot be bothered to go down the normal, reasonable and simple route of applying for access like everyone else does. In a word, it appears to me that they are what is known as "lazy".

As for "winding people up"; isn't this just childish and malicious? It would be easy to get the impression that Darkplaces' subscribers aren't pleasant people.

:roll:

 

[Higgypop]

As for "winding people up"; isn't this just childish and malicious? It would be easy to get the impression that Darkplaces' subscribers aren't pleasant people.

Jeremy Beadle is an evil man! He should be locked up!
I also have private message which back-up the fact that the trip was a hoax.

P.S. I'm a subscriber and I'm nice.

 

[cap n chris]

No, Jeremy Beadle's programme was childish. Apparently he is a very nice man.

You may have had a private message telling you that something was a hoax but for anyone else reading the original information it would have been real, wouldn't it?

I expect there are many nice subscribers of which you are one - but you are not the point at issue here.

 

[Mine Explorer]

If you fancy a laugh, pop over to Darkplaces and read their take on all this:

http://www.c**tplaces.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2328&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

As they were all "in on the joke" they've all missed seeing all the references to forcing locks, removing chains etc. although they stand by the 'bugger access conditions I do what I want'!

They've all now picked up that bog standard trespass is a civil offence, but missed the reference to "Criminal Damage Act 1971" which shows that there's a maximum 10 year prison sentance for "Destroying Or Damaging Property". Despite in their "wind up" advocating the destruction of chains, damaging gates etc.!!! - you have to chuckle don't you!

For those with a memory, their resident expert on law, a Mr. Nettleden is the very person who a couple of years ago forgot all about copyright laws when he swiped copies of Nick McCamleys plans out of Nick's books, shoved the "Nettleden" logo on them, removed all references to their original location and then put them on his web site. How I laughed when he subsequently ended up removing them after publicly inviting frequenters of uk.rec.subterranea (including Mr. McCamley!) to view his site!

It was also at this time that Wansdyke bricked up access to Monkton Farleigh and an on line group started a campaign to break down the wall because it was their "right" to visit the place. (Note this wasn't Darkplaces and I don't think it was Nettleden either). You have to laugh when people know thier "rights" don't you?!

Go on, you know you all want to! Have a look!

Hic!
Mine X.

 

[Mine Explorer]

Whoops, my memory is fading a bit. A quick search of the google archives shows it may have been Simon Muir rather than Nick McCamley. Still the principle remains.

I wonder if Mr. C.Davis who also contributed to the discussion at that time is the same as Root/Darkplaces? A little look back also shows that Mr. Higgypop and Mr. Nettleden might also be one in the same?

All these names from the past!

I'd better go and have another drink and stop laughing!

It seems Darkplaces' subscibers didn't damage the gates at Oakwood, but boy do their postings leave themselves open to criticism!


I've had enough of all this!
Good night,
MX.

 

[Mine Explorer]

Blimey, what you can find on Google. It WAS the Nettleden site that ran the "Walldown" campaign on districts 19 and 20 because they knew their "rights". It was later a "Climbdown" on 7/10/02 when their website decided perhaps Wansdyke DID own it afterall.

Nettleden these days is totally reformed. Their website says so:

"No members of the Nettleden team have ever vandalised anything at any location either underground or over ground in surface buildings. We have never caused any damage or broken anything to gain access to any site over or under ground"

It's nice to know some people are civilised!


Cheerio,
Mine X.

 

[darkplaces]

I still think the majority of people commiting criminal acts would NOT post pictures of the act. A small minority maybe/rare.

Speed limits is just one example of something some people feel needs to be broken because it exists. Because its a bad thing, people like to do bad things. Doesnt excuse it, but people are drawn to these things. If you put up barriers (to you they are small paperwork things) to others its simply barriers then the interest is increased. Make something open and people loose interest, other then the ones who are truely interested like cavers/mine explorers etc. I myself am not interested in vandalising mines or quarrys.

A:Over bearing groups. One right on my door step, a trust who decided without asking anyone the local quarry had no historical interest until a protest was made and access was regained. Before the trust had made its appearance the quarry had been visted by people for meny years without issue, no lawsuits. People came and went, didnt need insurence, didnt need to join a club. A stunning quarry actually with very little dammage. I'd be happy to show you around.

Monkton Farleigh is an example of our history locked away with no way of any offical access. Millions of pounds of public money was spent on it.

The windup was a result of harassment by locals (also called rangers I was told) who have let down tires, demanded permits be shown. Its not as if the forest of Dean is that special or big, they do manage to moan the loudest. I much prefer the contrast of Bath stone quarrys & mineral quarrys up north.

 

[Mine Explorer]

A:Over bearing groups. One right on my door step, a trust who decided without asking anyone the local quarry had no historical interest until a protest was made and access was regained.

Might that be Browns Folly?

If so I found no problem with the wildlife trust, a polite letter resulted in a key being sent, we weren't even charged a nominal sum for the cutting costs. Now finding the entrance in the woodland was the first challenge, finding our way round underground the second! An enjoyable afternoon was spent there after visiting a working mine in the morning - all done with polite letters and official permission!

 

[Higgypop]

Yeah but I was only young.

 

[Higgypop]

A little look back also shows that Mr. Higgypop and Mr. Nettleden might also be one in the same?

Oh and yes, that's me - Steve "Higgypop" Higgins creator of Nettleden.

 

[cap n chris]

Mr. DaviesDarkplaces wrote:

"If you put up barriers (to you they are small paperwork things) to others its simply barriers then the interest is increased. Make something open and people loose interest, other then the ones who are truely interested like cavers/mine explorers etc."...

I find this odd logic. Open cave/mine sites are visited by numbers in their thousands/hundreds by people who, by definition, are interested in them. If the sites weren't open how could people visit them otherwise? BTW barriers to sites (gates, permits etc.) are NOT put in place to increase an interest in a site! - they are put in place to a) protect wildlife, b) protect fragile formations/sediments, c) protect in situ archaeology and d) to protect members of the public, often children, from coming to harm as a result of being foolhardy and becoming a coroners court verdict of "death by misadventure".

Thanks to Mine Explorer we also get the link to Mr. Darkplaces' fabulous quote:

"people are out to point fingers because we bend the rules"...

Surely "bending the rules" is a euphemism for "breaking the law" or, at the very least, not abiding by the spirit of the law?

Also, the thread runs into the vagaries of trespass law, which rather suggests that the forum and its subscribers are aware of the greyness of their activities.

 

[Cumbrian Neil]

Mr. Darkplaces - This little ditty is exactly the reason why landowners get p**sed off with cavers and walkers. It would be nice if we could all laugh... ha ha very funny... you got one up on the FoD. But, sadly, the underlying problem is that you appear to dismiss trespassing and believe you have the "right" to wander where you wish. I'm glad you live in the south. Because if you lived in the north you would most likely cause problems in sensitive areas like Black and White Keld, Easegill, Leck Fell, Boreham Cave, and a whole host of other sensitive areas. You are the reason why the CNCC [and similar groups] are required to enforce access restrictions. I hate controling groups too... I believe the majority are self-righteous wannabe politicians... but you have compounded an already sensitive issue. Trespassing is trespassing.

I've scanned the majority of the messages on this thread and ask you this - Did you do the damage? Yes or no. Because it appears you have danced around the issue and not openly expressed your guilt or innocence one way or the other. Are you George Bush??

CN.

PS. Mr. Mine Explorer - Nice job on keeping your responses appropriate.

 

[Moochingabout]

I am the person who took the photos of the mine currently going by the name of HM Sandrat on Darkplaces. I took them because they were interesting. The damage to the hinges on the one side of the door was already there and the cuts were fairly rusty. Also the spraying was there when I got there. I did not enter the mine because from the gap in the door I could see steps that were fairly rotten, also the platform at which the ladder went throught also appeared to fairly ripe. Above all I would not ahve entered the mine due to the fact that the type of door that was on it made it quite clear that entry was stritly verboten.

Either way, its hard to believe that this has escalated to the extent that it has, from 2 pictures that I posted in order to find outsomething about them.

Thanks

 

[Mole]

Jagman has asked me to copy his Darkplaces posting to this Forum.

..................................................................


I have read with some interest the comments made on UKCaving forum, especially interesting as the posts seem to qoute a lot of the comments I have made on this forum.

For those reading this who have taken exception to my comments I must again emphasise that anything I say on here is in no way representative of Darkplaces or its organiser Root.

Also, to clear up some confusion the widely discussed FOD trip for a massed assault with cutting gear NEVER happened and was never going to, it was a wind up. This "wind up" was done in responce to some very negative communications from non-forum members whose attitude is frankly appalling and provoked quite a lot of anger amongst some of us here.

In addition I will clearly state once and for all, I have never used a Gas axe, Stihl saw/grinder, Range Rover/Chain, HIAB crane or a digger to gain entry to some-ones property without their consent, I have on occasion entered mines without the permission of the land owner.

I strongly support access for all, if that upsets certain members of the caving community I don't really care. I also do not condone the attitude of Forrest Enterprise.

Also, any one who has taken issue with anything I have to say is welcome to contact me to discuss the point, at NO time has anyone done that,.

As a rule no-one is aware of my comings and goings but one thing I do know for sure is that at many locations some of you have been there before me, and that includes members of UKCaving and other organisations, lets face it we all like a look at virgin territory.

If possible I do seek the permission of site owners, but not always. I also strongly believe that cavers and mine explorers shouls present a united front in the campaign for access ( I am aware that some of my own comments may hinder this). Access should not be dependant on membership of particular clubs/organisations.

Above all we should ALL try to abolish hypocricy in the form of petty accusations and feigned innocence, many of those claiming to be on the side of the angels in this argument are not and we all know it.

The reasons I have posted this message is I feel that the situation is now completely out of hand and some kind of resolution, even if we cannot all agree we must try to reach some form of understanding.

Personally I am willing to meet/talk to anybody on this matter, I have a very simple philosophy on this one, all of us should be as free as possible to go where we choose when we choose.

Root, if possible can this post be posted on the UKCaving forum ( I have'nt figured out how) and readers of that forum made aware that I am happy to discuss details.

Jagman
_________________
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.........
If it suits us.


...........................................................................

 

[Cave_Troll]

"I strongly support access for all, if that upsets certain members of the caving community I don't really care."

Access for all is probably what we all want. However you are going to _really_ annoy a lot of people if you bugger up someone's carefully agreed access agreements by bolt cropping a padlock or knocking a wall down. If a landowner then says "bugger you then i'll fill the entrance in with concrete" then we ALL loose.
I've got visions of someone ram-raiding Peak Cavern to get acess on a saturday which suits them.
if you "don't really" care, a lot of people do..
You don't have to actually "break in" to a cave to annoy a landowner. going down Long Rake without asking first may do a lot of damage to our access agreements if the Farmer would have said "no you can't coz i've got 200 pregnant ewes in that field i don't want disturbing."

 

[Jagman]

the only times I have entered mines without permission are in cases when some-one has brocken in/ dug the enterance out berfore I have been or entering mines long since forgotten and un-opened for 20 years plus.
I have never interfered with any other groups entrance in any way, I don't agree with restricted access but I have no desire to impede anybody else.

 

[Cumbrian Neil]

the only times I have entered mines without permission are in cases when some-one has brocken in/ dug the enterance out berfore I have been or entering mines long since forgotten and un-opened for 20 years plus.

This sounds like an excuse... excuses are like arseholes... everyone has one and they all stink. Trespassing is trespassing.

CN

 

[Jagman]

No excuses Neil, I don't feel the need to provide any.
I am merely trying to help clear up the confusion about FOD damage as I played a part in creating this issue.
I would have no difficulty in admitting here if I or anyone I know from Darkplaces had any responsibilty for this damage. As I have never been to the place in question I cannot comment as to when the damage actually occured but if it was on the weekend of our mythical visit I am sure we would have heard before now

 

[George North]

"I strongly support access for all, if that upsets certain members of the caving community I don't really care."

Access for all is probably what we all want.

No! I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that access for all down caves is a terrible idea. Caves, mines etc. need protecting, and sadly we've shown over and over again that we're not capable of doing it without some form of restriction.

Personally I prefer caves which impose their own access restrictions