bubba
Administrator
I've already made this clear.graham said:
In the case of the Giants fatality it was because there may have been legal action taken as a result of the accident. Discussion of what happened / blame / etc could possibly have influenced that action.
In the case of the recent Dales fatalities it's because the identities of the victims have not yet been released as their next of kin have not yet been informed. Surely the possible implications of that are more than obvious?
graham
New member
In what way would opinions expressed on here influence any legal action? I challenge you to find a single case where any such influence on any court case has been shown. If there has been extensive media coverage of such an event, a judge will give relevant direction at the start of a case.bubba said:
bubba said:
And? We do not know who they are either. Only those in possession of this information could post it and they would be au fait with that situation. Why should that prevent us discussing surrounding circumstances, such as weather conditions, water levels and so on? These circumstances may affect what people, cavers, do now before that information is available.
As I noted before our community will be going through a stress reaction and needs to come together and deal with it. Where else can they do that, if not here?
bubba
Administrator
I've no idea - i'm not a lawyer. But to be on the safe side the topic was locked. In fact the topic was locked for far too long (i've not really been online much recently) but even now it's been unlocked nobody has posted in it anyway so really i don't see the problem.graham said:
I'm sure some people on here know full well who they were. The point is, if a worried relative is reading this forum and they find out their loved on is one of the deceased then it would cause them a great deal of suffering. Yes, they will be caused a great deal of suffering no matter how they find out but I'd rather leave it to the professionals to break the news to them.graham said:
Also suppose somebody incorrectly identifies the deceased on here? Firstly any relatives of the actual deceased will think incorrectly that their loved ones are ok, and secondly anyone who knows the people who were incorrectly identified will be devastated.
There will be plenty of time to discuss all that once the identities of the victims have been released which i can't imagine will be that much longer.graham said:
graham
New member
No, you are not a lawyer. I think one would tell you that you are overly worried about this.
What is to stop anybody falsely ID'ing someone on a different thread, or in Chat or somewhere? Again, I think you worry too much.
There is not plenty of time to discuss what people might do tomorrow, in tomorrow's weather conditions.
I really do think that the forum is failing its members by preventing them coming together around incidents like this.
What is to stop anybody falsely ID'ing someone on a different thread, or in Chat or somewhere? Again, I think you worry too much.
There is not plenty of time to discuss what people might do tomorrow, in tomorrow's weather conditions.
I really do think that the forum is failing its members by preventing them coming together around incidents like this.
cap n chris
Well-known member
I didn't realise this forum was supposed to be mollycoddling subscribers.
M
MSD
Guest
Let me make one thing clear. My post was not intended to put the moderators under pressure to immedately open the threads. What I wanted was a measured and thoughtful debate over forum policy which hopefully will lead to some kind of concensus about how to deal with this kind of situation. That debate needs to take time in itself. We shouldn't take a knee jerk reaction based on one specific case, when as someone has already pointed out, many of us are upset. Three deaths in a month is a major blow to the caving community.
So let's take the debate slowly and calmly. No mud slinging, no cheap shots. If nothing else the very subject demands a dignified and careful approach.
Mark
So let's take the debate slowly and calmly. No mud slinging, no cheap shots. If nothing else the very subject demands a dignified and careful approach.
Mark
bubba
Administrator
Well i have to run the place as I see fit. As an aside I was contacted by a close friend of the guy who died in Giants and he thanked me for locking the topic so I feel I did the right thing in that case.graham said:
Other topics will be removed. Chat is transient, isn't indexed by search engines and if anyone gave a bad ID, only a handful of people would see it. I could moderate chat but i really can't be bothered.graham said:
People are welcome to start topics regarding caving tomorrow given the current forcast and conditions so long as the discussion stays on that subject.graham said:
graham said:
I doubt anyone on here would be so stupid as to speculate on the names, I'm sure people would not post names until it was confirmed by another source.
If someone knew them/was on the trip etc I doubt they would be posting information/names on here..
The ages and where they came from are freely available on many a news site or rag/paper I'm sure a relative would have a very good idea just from them details.
Mollycoddling in what way?
Some people appear to have done exactly this!
I agree that pointless speculation and guesses as to what happened are not needed, likewise guessing or revealing the names is also something that other sources should do first. But, given time for relatives to be informed etc, reasonable discussion about an incident is needed, just on the off chance it helps/informs someone else, even one person, about possible scenarios and dangers to be aware of and possibly helps prevents any future incidents.
GemmaJones
New member
Having lost my partner in March 2005 in a caving accident, I can say I found some aspects of the internet forums very useful. The messages I got from friends and people within the caving community (on the, mainly, CDG forum) were comforting and I was able to post out funeral arrangements to cavers who knew Colin on there (not very conventional, but highly practical.) I was also able to express my gratitude to the people involved in the rescue. I know Colin?s family also found comfort in reading the messages.
As a caver myself I felt it was useful to learn about how a tragedy occurred to try and avoid any future repetition. However, if we?re honest, we all like to reason as well. We like to think, that happened to them because of ?x? and of course we wouldn?t do that, so we?re ok. This then allows us to all carry on doing the sport we love. It?s much more courageous to think that it could have been us, to accept that accidents do just happen and that everyone makes decisions they regret, in every aspect of life, but it doesn?t mean they should be blamed because of it. No-one is infallible.
The general public like being told how dangerous caving is. It makes their own life feel all that more safe, because it is somewhere they will never go and now they have a reason not to go. The reporter on ITV last night said that cavers regularly died. No they don?t. It makes much more sensational press reporting when they do though, because of the sheer fact that it is rare. The press will quite simply do whatever it takes to sell a story. (See my entry on CDG message board entitled media.)
I do think speculation isn?t helpful when the facts aren?t yet to hand and I respect the decision to lock the thread. I am sure most of the caving community, like myself, want to find out the names of the deceased, once the next of kin have been informed, to learn if they were a part of our individual network of friends and to offer condolences to their families.
As a caver myself I felt it was useful to learn about how a tragedy occurred to try and avoid any future repetition. However, if we?re honest, we all like to reason as well. We like to think, that happened to them because of ?x? and of course we wouldn?t do that, so we?re ok. This then allows us to all carry on doing the sport we love. It?s much more courageous to think that it could have been us, to accept that accidents do just happen and that everyone makes decisions they regret, in every aspect of life, but it doesn?t mean they should be blamed because of it. No-one is infallible.
The general public like being told how dangerous caving is. It makes their own life feel all that more safe, because it is somewhere they will never go and now they have a reason not to go. The reporter on ITV last night said that cavers regularly died. No they don?t. It makes much more sensational press reporting when they do though, because of the sheer fact that it is rare. The press will quite simply do whatever it takes to sell a story. (See my entry on CDG message board entitled media.)
I do think speculation isn?t helpful when the facts aren?t yet to hand and I respect the decision to lock the thread. I am sure most of the caving community, like myself, want to find out the names of the deceased, once the next of kin have been informed, to learn if they were a part of our individual network of friends and to offer condolences to their families.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
I think the apparent outcome of this discussion is an entirely satisfactory arrangement - lock down the topic until next of kin are informed etc.
I think most people will be happy to hold back patiently if knowing that a discussion will follow in due course. We all need to learn from tragedies.
And of course inappropriate posts can be removed by mods.
I hope that the next time this arrangement is called into action, it was so long ago that we've forgotten about it.
Chris.
I think most people will be happy to hold back patiently if knowing that a discussion will follow in due course. We all need to learn from tragedies.
And of course inappropriate posts can be removed by mods.
I hope that the next time this arrangement is called into action, it was so long ago that we've forgotten about it.
Chris.
Having had this thread on my mind while spending much of today keeping an eye on the French news, I'm just going to add my thoughts and observations.
When I first saw that thread this morning, I realised I knew the cave in question, having done that through trip fairly recently. By the time I got to work, I remembered I also had my caving logbook on my work PC, so I was able to have a quick scan through that and remind myself about the system in more detail, so there was plenty of information I could have added in this particular case.
The broad consensus across all the French news websites was that they were almost all reproducing the AFP story word for word, so there wasn't the same variation in reporting that we occasionally get between national and local reporting in the UK, though I guess that's down to UK reporting frequently being somewhat after the event and with an outcome already having been established rather than of an ongoing operation where there is little or no news, and no clear picture when there might be news.
The statement about the plan for today's operations that the day started with was being rehashed around lunchtime to focus more on the single quote that suggested that with time ticking on, more concern should be expected, until the news broke of the first pair being on their way out. A couple of different sources reported slightly different variations and interpretations based on who did and didn't speak to/see the emerging pair.
I've been watching the story develop because a) I'm nosy in general, b) I'm curious in particular about stuff happening somewhere I've been and c) I was aware from the first post that there might be other people following the story from the UK but without the language skills to stay fully up to date with developments. Not that it matters that there was anything much any of us could do, but I think it is perfectly natural for a caver to take an active interest until there's some sort of outcome.
Which brings me to my thoughts on this place: I first found it when Mexico was a live, ongoing event - I can declare a personal interest in that, as (like probably loads of people on here) someone involved was someone I had caved with previously, and whose involvement this place (or news stories linked to from here at the time) confirmed. You can see by my posting stats that I don't post a lot, I'm not interested in a lot of the general conversation that goes on, and I tend to only post if I can answer a question and nobody has already done so.
But all the same, when I last was away, in the same scale of place as this French trip, and where there is some history of trips turning into news stories, I left this place bookmarked on a non-caver's computer with the instruction that in the unlikely event of my trip turning into a news story, if there was any such place, this was likely to be where to find out a bit more about what was being reported than taking any news report at face value.
That said, I'm entirely comfortable that beyond confirmation or information that something is happening/has happened in x cave in y location, any other speculation is exactly that, and nothing is gained by details beyond any outcome of eventual exit or evacuation. Which is more or less what I've tried to stick to today, as even though there was no confirmed fatality, it wasn't out of the question that there might be.
I don't have a particular conclusion or point where I'm going with this, but I gave it some thought when this thread was first running as well, so there you go.
When I first saw that thread this morning, I realised I knew the cave in question, having done that through trip fairly recently. By the time I got to work, I remembered I also had my caving logbook on my work PC, so I was able to have a quick scan through that and remind myself about the system in more detail, so there was plenty of information I could have added in this particular case.
The broad consensus across all the French news websites was that they were almost all reproducing the AFP story word for word, so there wasn't the same variation in reporting that we occasionally get between national and local reporting in the UK, though I guess that's down to UK reporting frequently being somewhat after the event and with an outcome already having been established rather than of an ongoing operation where there is little or no news, and no clear picture when there might be news.
The statement about the plan for today's operations that the day started with was being rehashed around lunchtime to focus more on the single quote that suggested that with time ticking on, more concern should be expected, until the news broke of the first pair being on their way out. A couple of different sources reported slightly different variations and interpretations based on who did and didn't speak to/see the emerging pair.
I've been watching the story develop because a) I'm nosy in general, b) I'm curious in particular about stuff happening somewhere I've been and c) I was aware from the first post that there might be other people following the story from the UK but without the language skills to stay fully up to date with developments. Not that it matters that there was anything much any of us could do, but I think it is perfectly natural for a caver to take an active interest until there's some sort of outcome.
Which brings me to my thoughts on this place: I first found it when Mexico was a live, ongoing event - I can declare a personal interest in that, as (like probably loads of people on here) someone involved was someone I had caved with previously, and whose involvement this place (or news stories linked to from here at the time) confirmed. You can see by my posting stats that I don't post a lot, I'm not interested in a lot of the general conversation that goes on, and I tend to only post if I can answer a question and nobody has already done so.
But all the same, when I last was away, in the same scale of place as this French trip, and where there is some history of trips turning into news stories, I left this place bookmarked on a non-caver's computer with the instruction that in the unlikely event of my trip turning into a news story, if there was any such place, this was likely to be where to find out a bit more about what was being reported than taking any news report at face value.
That said, I'm entirely comfortable that beyond confirmation or information that something is happening/has happened in x cave in y location, any other speculation is exactly that, and nothing is gained by details beyond any outcome of eventual exit or evacuation. Which is more or less what I've tried to stick to today, as even though there was no confirmed fatality, it wasn't out of the question that there might be.
I don't have a particular conclusion or point where I'm going with this, but I gave it some thought when this thread was first running as well, so there you go.
