Giving The Forum A Break

[The Old Ruminator]

My personal views.

Sadly I feel that the forum is losing appeal for me. There have only been three posts in the Digging Section since January and one of them is mine. Even the photographic side is diminishing. As far as I can see the winner of this years Giles Barker award ( " Bill Nix " ) rarely posts here yet his photos are prolific on Facebook. I am not sure that the award was even mentioned here. I get more cynical replies to my posts and hardly ever any encouragement. In fact I hardly ever leave the forum feelin uplifted or informed.
Sure its not the mods fault. More digging is now seen in other media like Facebook Groups ( Mendip Digging Group, Black Sheep Diggers etc ). Others use blogs like the excellant Halloweeen Rift site. I had hoped that the trend would be reversed but in fact its rapidly overtaken the forum in respect of digging news. Unfairly I compare this forum to the collectors forum I support. We get loads of images there and the shows and fairs get reported with a great many images. Note the rather rude comment I got back when I suggested that this forum highlight Hidden Earth. I guess that was the deciding factor in my forthcoming forum "holiday". Caving gets one major event a year and it passes by with little on here. Basically nobody can be bothered and its my fault for not attending.
I feel that the forum is slipping away. Both divers forums went as they ceased to be topical. Its a shame and like I said nobodys fault other than those who come here. Support is waning and for some reason cavers are a more cynical bunch. I do hope for a turn around one day and I shall eventually return . Age permitting.

Thanks, Nick ( O. R. )

I shall do a check to see that this posts get aired then have a break.

 

[Pegasus]

Tim and I have attended Hidden Earth with a UKC stand for many years - this year we had already booked a holiday before the 2023 HE date was released. Whenever we attend we run competitions, with prizes amounting to £100's of pounds, I post regular updates and do what I can to promote the event.
We were away this year, what could we do??
The default reaction of folks who are not happy with UKC is 'I'm off, I'm taking a break' - it's soul destroying.
I repeat (again, sigh) we are not billionaire silicon Valley tycoons. We do not have the resources of Facebook, Instagram, tiktok etc etc.
We have owned UKC for 9 years now and we have tried hard, really hard to make it a useful, relevant pleasant place for cavers to use. We've spent hours and hours of our time and tons of emotional energy over those 9 years on UKC.
£1000's of pounds in prizes have been won, miles of rope donated by UKC abseiled on by many a caver, we've supported CHECC, helped organise Kendal, improved the atmosphere on here because let's be honest when we took over it was dominated by a few and a toxic place to be - no longer.
It's obviously not enough for UK cavers.
I don't know what else to say, what do cavers want?? What do you want me personally to do to improve UKC?

 

[tomferry]

Tim and I have attended Hidden Earth with a UKC stand for many years - this year we had already booked a holiday before the 2023 HE date was released. Whenever we attend we run competitions, with prizes amounting to £100's of pounds, I post regular updates and do what I can to promote the event.
We were away this year, what could we do??
The default reaction of folks who are not happy with UKC is 'I'm off, I'm taking a break' - it's soul destroying.
I repeat (again, sigh) we are not billionaire silicon Valley tycoons. We do not have the resources of Facebook, Instagram, tiktok etc etc.
We have owned UKC for 9 years now and we have tried hard, really hard to make it a useful, relevant pleasant place for cavers to use. We've spent hours and hours of our time and tons of emotional energy over those 9 years on UKC.
£1000's of pounds in prizes have been won, miles of rope donated by UKC abseiled on by many a caver, we've supported CHECC, helped organise Kendal, improved the atmosphere on here because let's be honest when we took over it was dominated by a few and a toxic place to be - no longer.
It's obviously not enough for UK cavers.
I don't know what else to say, what do cavers want?? What do you want me personally to do to improve UKC?

I personally greatly appreciate your work . Me & other mine explores have lost aditnow, Without starting that debate again, we have had no update. all we have left forum wise, is this . I am sure I speak for many when I say we truly appreciate your work .

If you hadn’t of done this and helped us, I no I would have lost contact with many people. I am sure I do not stand alone .

I will miss the o / r images myself I enjoyed his massive project ! What a terrible loss ….


I don’t believe this website / forum can be improved ? Maybe let me post 4 images instead of 3 I always struggle to make it down to 3

 

[Pegasus]

Apologies, Tom - I should have mentioned how we've been happy to help the mining community. Post 4, if anyone complains tell then I said so 😉

 

[mikem]

It's not your fault, forums generally are declining in popularity (partly youngsters don't want to be on the same platform as their parents, or often in the same clubs).

From onely.com last year:

Traditional forums might have been great twenty years ago. But these days, there are better tools for online communities. Apps like Slack or Discord offer extended features while retaining most of what a typical bulletin board offers. That’s where the future of online communities seems to be.

At the same time, the need for people to search for information on specific, community-related topics hasn’t gone away. But their attention span is decreasing, and their browsing behavior is different. They want answers to their questions to be both exhaustive and quick.

6 Reasons Social Media Killed Online Forums

Remember when online forums were the big craze? Well, social media has led to them becoming less important. Here's why.

www.makeuseof.com

 

[Pegasus]

It's not your fault, forums generally are declining in popularity (partly youngsters don't want to be on the same platform as their parents, or often in the same clubs).

From onely.com last year:

6 Reasons Social Media Killed Online Forums

Remember when online forums were the big craze? Well, social media has led to them becoming less important. Here's why.

www.makeuseof.com

Great, feel much better now....

 

[langcliffe]

My personal views.

Sadly I feel that the forum is losing appeal for me. There have only been three posts in the Digging Section since January and one of them is mine. Even the photographic side is diminishing.

I feel that the forum is slipping away. Support is waning and for some reason cavers are a more cynical bunch. I do hope for a turn around one day and I shall eventually return . Age permitting.

Thanks, Nick ( O. R. )

I can understand that the forum may not be giving you what you want from it, but I don't feel that is justification for saying that the forum is slipping away, and support is waning. I get the impression that the posting rate is as high as it ever was (that can probably be checked by the administrators). I probably only read a quarter of the postings, and contribute to relatively few topics, but that is enough for me to think that the forum is worthwhile.

Thank you, Pegasus and Badlad.

 

[langcliffe]

Another point which is worth making is that one doesn't post to get the most approval ticks. Sometimes, someone may post an opinion which is not universally popular, but is a point of view worthy of consideration. When I post news about the Dent de Crolles system, I don't expect more than a dozen people to be interested. A digging log may be avidly followed by a few, but is not necessarily of interest to others. But if someone has something worthwhile to share with the caving community, let's share it. It may be ignored now, but it will be available via search engines when people do require the information.

 

[Pitlamp]

Tim and I have attended Hidden Earth with a UKC stand for many years - this year we had already booked a holiday before the 2023 HE date was released. Whenever we attend we run competitions, with prizes amounting to £100's of pounds, I post regular updates and do what I can to promote the event.
We were away this year, what could we do??
The default reaction of folks who are not happy with UKC is 'I'm off, I'm taking a break' - it's soul destroying.
I repeat (again, sigh) we are not billionaire silicon Valley tycoons. We do not have the resources of Facebook, Instagram, tiktok etc etc.
We have owned UKC for 9 years now and we have tried hard, really hard to make it a useful, relevant pleasant place for cavers to use. We've spent hours and hours of our time and tons of emotional energy over those 9 years on UKC.
£1000's of pounds in prizes have been won, miles of rope donated by UKC abseiled on by many a caver, we've supported CHECC, helped organise Kendal, improved the atmosphere on here because let's be honest when we took over it was dominated by a few and a toxic place to be - no longer.
It's obviously not enough for UK cavers.
I don't know what else to say, what do cavers want?? What do you want me personally to do to improve UKC?

As far as I'm concerned you've been massively successful. I'm very grateful for the time you put into making this such an excellent medium for cavers to discuss our pastime.

To quote Langcliffe: Thank you, Pegasus and Badlad.

 

[Steve Clark]

There is a huge amount of information on here. I’ve read loads of relevant posts, most created well before I started (dry) caving. I try to do a bit of research before a trip and there’s plenty of trip reports and issues/history/threads about any particular cave. You’d stand no chance of finding that on Facebook.

Photo inspiration too, ideas to figure out how they were lit and shot.

As a caver from a smaller non-caving focussed club, it gives access to valuable updates on local hot issues in the Dales and also some good debate about techniques and gear reviews.

It’s not like Facebook. I’m sure far more folks read a post than feel the necessity to acknowledge their mild interest or approval of it with a ‘like’. I quite like that. Leaves it available acknowledge things that genuinely go beyond.

 

[Cavematt]

Hello TOR

It is a shame to hear you feel the forum is slipping away, and that you are taking a break. I have always enjoyed seeing your photos, following your updates and your contributions to various discussions on here (even where my own opinions differ).

I agree that it would be nice if more photos and reports could be posted on here. I have done so a few times with our work in the North York Moors, and I have seen several others do so about various expeditions and recent work in the Peak District, in Nidderdale, Portland and the recent discoveries in the Yorkshire Dales too, so I’d say that there is plenty being posted already.

I think the forum is absolutely thriving, in so many ways. Hidden Earth was all over the forum on the two months on the approach, with abstracts and updates regularly posted, no doubt contributing to the almost record numbers who attended.

Yes, it would be lovely to see some more photos from the event on here. It may be that people are planning on posting some, but just haven’t done so yet (I know that my partner took some photos but we have barely stopped to process them since then). At the same time, we know that Descent will produce an excellent write up of Hidden Earth.

Many cavers and caving organisations I know will use Facebook for some things, X for others, UKCaving for some things, their club websites and Whatsapp groups for other things. The diversity of social media outlets should be celebrated, not regretted (a point I had rather hoped to make at the Hidden Earth discussion on club journals but the competition to speak was rather high). I find that UKCaving has a unique USP in being run for cavers by cavers, and so it will always play a big role in my opinion.

For me, and I think many people, UKCaving provides the first choice for caving information, asking questions, general discussion, advertising events, circulating certain news, and on some occasions, posting snippets and reports on caving/digging activities.

I agree it would be lovely if more people did the latter… I think everyone would agree.

Tim and Jane put in such a huge amount of work to run the forum and promote it. So rather than taking a break from the forum, why not volunteer to help them to encourage more people to post their photos and reports here on UK Caving? For example, get in touch with clubs/individuals who are posting on other forms of social media and encourage them to write something up and post a few photos on UKCaving too?

Maybe I am suggesting a role as a volunteer UKCaving ‘correspondant’... 😊

I know that if I got an email to the York Caving Club inbox from someone saying that they’d seen our recent Facebook post on a successful club event or digging session, and how nice it would be to also see a short report on UKCaving, I would probably be happy to oblige. Yes, I should probably be doing it without being prompted, but it’s easy to overlook these things with busy modern life.

It may be that with a little boost to the posting of photos and reports, this could have a cascade effect. I know that some of my digging report postings have been inspired by seeing others doing the same.

Stay with us TOR; You would be a great loss to the community, and taking a break isn’t going to do anything to help move UKCaving in the direction you would like to see it moving.

 

[pwhole]

Just to reassure TOR that not all cavers are on facebook - I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, frankly, nor most of the others either. But I still wouldn't post my digs on here unless they were complete, or not likely to be put at risk, as it's a public forum, so everyone in the world can read it. I post all my digs on our private club forum though. And also some would be a risk to the public if they visited after reading about it here. Most sites in my area don't have the luxury of permission digs on private land, and are often (for me) very exploratory, though nearly always on public access land. Some known caves are also suffering damage or misuse by being mentioned on social media - Suicide Cave in Castleton, for example.

All that said, I think UKC is doing a marvellous job given the competition for online attention, and since AditNow folded it's the only site I use - I don't feel that it's slipping away at all. We're all human, and are all juggling and balancing the complexities of real life with online life, and I suspect many people (including me), are just damn busy - I have four (it was five!) admin roles between our club and DCA to fit in too. You are retired, remember - I doubt most of the membership on here are, and possibly many of them are pretty skint too at the moment!

 

[cap n chris]

The forum is doing very well indeed, imo. I suspect that you are correct, though, in your observtion that digging exploits are in the sidelines - there's many many reasons for this which i'm not going to go in to for fear of alerting lurkers to pitfalls which exist for publicising sensitive information. What I will endeavour to do, though, for TOR is a roving dig reportage thingy so he can have his fix - my dig is in my cave so the landowner (me) isn't going to get a cob on if I post something about the goings on there. Many other digs don't have this advantage and need to, indeed must, remain beneath the radar. Digging is the lifeblood of caving but in an online world it definitely needs to keep a low profile. Shame, but hey ho.

 

[Pegasus]

Thanks All 😍

 

[mikem]

Great, feel much better now....

This forum is a lot healthier than some others that I used to frequent (& a lot friendlier than before you took it over)

 

[cap n chris]

This forum is a lot healthier than some others that I used to frequent (& a lot friendlier than before you took it over)

It would/could be even friendlier if irksome folk didn't post here. ;-)

 

[JoshW]

It would/could be even friendlier if irksome folk didn't post here. ;-)

👋 😂

 

[Leclused]

As a non uk caver I visit this forum regular. I read not all topics. But from time to time I can help UK cavers with info from the mainland, give some info about conservation, digging or other topics that interest me.

And when I have a topic that might interest the UK community I will share it.

So please keep up the good work

 

[Tim Pickering]

I lurk. It's only recently I've started to participate a little more. However, this forum has always been my first port of call when I'm after information, whether that's on a bit of kit or a cave, or best practice; anything caving related, and I've usually found what I've been after. I also love reading some of the historical posts, and I appreciate the friendly banter and the heated debates.

Social media outlets like Facebook, Twitter/X, Instagram et al are the Walmarts and Starbucks of the internet platform. Forums are the little independent shops tucked away down the side streets. Don't let the big boys shove you off the playground.

 

[Pegasus]

I lurk. It's only recently I've started to participate a little more. However, this forum has always been my first port of call when I'm after information, whether that's on a bit of kit or a cave, or best practice; anything caving related, and I've usually found what I've been after. I also love reading some of the historical posts, and I appreciate the friendly banter and the heated debates.

Social media outlets like Facebook, Twitter/X, Instagram et al are the Walmarts and Starbucks of the internet platform. Forums are the little independent shops tucked away down the side streets. Don't let the big boys shove you off the playground.

Exactly! Thank you